so really you just have to be cheaper than coal whether you have the ptc or not. the thing about the ptc, it flows to your electricity price. natural gas subsidies do not. the price of a ptc, 2.2 cents flows into a cont,ment when your utility buys it. it does not when you give gas subsidies or subsidies to the oil and gas business. they go to the producer. they don't flow through to your electric rate. >> unfortunately we have to close. i will make one point. a confusion between growth subsidies and per kilowatt hour or industry. if i give a $10 bill to everyone in the room it would be a 10ds per person subsidies. if i asked how many went to christians, it would be a larger than to jews. since oil and gas subsidies are huge, of course they will pull down a larger gross of money, which is pretty irrelevant when you're looking at who is getting a bigger subsidy because they are not one company, many thousands of companies. i will take the last word and adjourn us. i'm doing this mostly for television people. our speakers will probably hang out for a few more minutes

would you speak to the fact that we're at a really critical juncture here in regards to the ptc, the production tax credit. it's been very instrumental in the expansion of wind. deployment around our country. every state has a stake in this. whether states are producing wind in any significant amounts because of the supply chain that's developed. this very important policy expires at the end of 2012. would you speak to the ramifications if we don't extend the ptc in the time frame that we have left? >> sure. yeah, very quickly, i think things like production tax credits are a way to stimulate moving forward to get deployment in the marketplace. and because europe has -- i would say even perhaps in even worse economic straits than we are, and you see some countries like spain decreasing a lot of their feeding tariffs, a lot of their subsidies for renewables, that there's a diminution of the market. but it's the local markets that actually help stimulate manufacturing in a particular country. and so the -- and this is why when spain took away their subsidies and other countries are dec

solve this problem later and basically i was the guy in charge and said, no we're going to set up this ptc. there were emergencies, contingencies all the way through this process of returning to earth. there was no such thing as a free ride. we had to perform a couple of emergency maneuvers because our trajectory was flattening out. we didn't know why. we had to correct that. the crew was suffocating. we had to invent techniques of using the square -- chemical scrubbers we used for the air from a standpoint of the command module and be able to adapt those over to the lunar module. finally as we were approaching the final phase of entry, the procedures weren't coming together quite as nicely as we would have liked to. the crew wanted to see how we intended to accomplish this final sequence. basic problem we had was we had a command module that was our re-entry vessel. it had the heat shield but only had about 2 1/2 hours of electrical power lifetime. the service module, where the explosion occurred was virtually useless. lunar module attached to the other end of this stack through a small t

would you speak to the fact we are at a critical juncture in regards to them ptc?dea's been instrumental in the expansion of what in the -- it has been instrumental in the expansion of wind. this important policy expires at the end of 2012. it would you speak to the ramifications if we do not extend the ptc in the timeframe? >> very quickly. these are a way to stimulate moving forward to get deployment in the marketplace. because europe has worse economic straits than we do and you see countries like spain decreasing a lot of their tariffs and subsidies there is a diminishing of the market. it is the local markets that helps stimulate manufacturing in a particular country. this is why, when spain took away their subsidies and other countries are decreasing china put in feeding tariffs for their market in wind. they recognize that they wanted to nurture their industries. they need a market to determine they are going to be -- they want to catch up in winter and technologies. they're becoming the dominant force in solar technologies. they see both of those at risk. a