and this was -- it's sort of like taking a product and puina on it and saying, "this might be oin,anpuinit on the supermarket shelves. >> you know and i think, "well, human beings certainly can go insane. so can systems, gh" >> yeah, and so can groups of human beings. in the '90s, the investors took over. and they basically said to management, "we don't care what you do. n'ca my ive jets, houses, golf courses, imming pools, whatever you have, as lo ashicgo. if share price goes down, we're going to get rid of you even if you're good." and managers started being scared of their stockholders and ths ea of shareholder value came into being. i never heard the word "sld vl 90s. it was customers, customers, customers. how are the cuoms? are we doing well? are we losing place with the customers? but all of a sudden -- and sandy s total proponent. >> sandy weill? >> sandy weill. i mean, his whole life was to acmulateoney. an hsa, "john, we could be so rich." being ri nerroedy nd aobctive value. aoswaemrrsed that somebody would say ould. imit hpengut you wouldn't want to say it. but you know, the bi