in the middle you have the fertile plains of like kansas of the punjab, the punjab and then up here right about where your finger joins the little bumps that would be islam ma bad the new capital and then on up here you get the mountains, pakistan, the great hindu kush going town 4,000 feet and then down to sea level. >> well, that is an interesting way. >> that is an interesting way to understand pakistan of course this is caused because the indian subcontinent is mushing into asia, causing mount everest and these sort of things, so india, pakistan, one entity, on the east, great jungles that lead into burma. so can't go that way. on the west, afghanistan with the fierce tribes and down below the great sis earth. so -- desert, natural protection and you can't go over to nepal and that way. that is pretty tough. there they are. pakistans you will remember became a country in 1947 by a mr. jinaw when the raj was ending. he was beating the table and said, we muslims need a separate country. they won in no small part due to christian minorities everybody was surprised. there is pakistan. >>

but it is a tribal society and each of the tribes, the sin in the south and punjabs in the middle and over the wild balukis and northern territories above islam ma bad they will ask you how are things in pakistan. and you say well, you are in pakistan and they say not really. some body showed up and said now you are a pakistani. but they all speak different languages, i said somewhere maybe back in switzerland the valleys were so steep you could talk to the next valley but you lose the language so their tribal areas, each of which spoke a different language, so then there was this great made up language called urdu kind of arabic kind of per january kind of this and -- persian kind of this and that but you can imagine if the baluki's couldn't speak to the sindhis and they couldn't speak to those in the north english became the language in which things were officially conducted. and so particularly -- and then it is caste system remember hindu is india and it is vertical -- i mean horizontal you are born in this caste you stay here you are born up here you stay up here. then islam come

pakistani punjab, which is ten times the size of indian punjab, you'll have one shelf.nd many of those books now literally decay in the past. as i said, my sense, however, is that the effects of urbanization and after all, you know, this is true in many other places as well. we know very well from other countries, playly in africa -- particularly in africa, that even, you know, tremendous growth of cities doesn't necessarily lead to fundamental changes in political patterns at all. or at any rate, i mean, in much more ambiguous and slow ways than we think. progress for the future, well, to some extent perhaps you could say that the biggest hope is china in, india out by which i mean input from china. there is a lot of hope in the pakistani industrial establishment that as china's population ages, as china's wages go up and living standards go up, so labor intensive, low-tech industries will move out of china into pakistan. of course, greatly helped by the geopolitical relationship with china. it's very striking when you think about it. china's tremendous rise as a great

you go and start shooting national in the back of the head you have a problem not just in punjab but in bradford because of the sympathy for the kashmiri jihad. i, myself, think if one is looking at incremental progress , i mean, i hope that this will come with trade, i believe that a solution to kashmir is a long way off. what i think it's possible and here perhaps i looking more of the european soviet relationship in the american in the past but the idea of detente, the phrase they taunt interests me when it comes to pakistan and india. because what we saw during the cold war in the united states and europe, nato and the soviet union was that of course the structural hostility lasted from late 1940's to 1989 or so and to some extent america at last to this day. but even during the cold war that did not prevent either limited agreements between the soviet union and america to reduce tension either generally in detente or in particular areas, and of course between the european continent and the soviet union it didn't prevent the creation of a massive infrastructure project of tremend

yet this dealershipin the punjab still sells several hundred cars a year >>ghosh: so if you look at the bottom of the pyramid cars are basically instruments of mobility but layered on top of that it still is a signal to the fact that i am doing well in life, recognise me by the car that i drive. so why would you for example want to drive a 600 series mercedes benz at 4kmper hour in a city like bangalore, basically to allow people to look at you and say wow. >>raj jain: i would say as far as the comfort, the silence, the convenience and the safety and otherfactors which persuaded me to buy one. so not only one i have three now but i love driving an e class the most. when you are driving and when you are riding and the comfort you get and the performance of the car is such that you feel that you are different from others. >>reporter: but spiralling demand for all forms of motor vehicles means the country's roads especially in major cities, are clogged with cars and motorbikes. last year alone 9 million two wheelers were sold in india and nearly 2 million cars. many motorcyclists also want

for four years, then run to be a municipal counselor and then five years later on for a seat in punjab's state legislature. downstairs the family didn't say for the future, didn't strategize about the crockery business they now ran and were blissfully unaware of their plan for tomorrow let alone for 20 years from now. upstairs chacha told me seeking to distill his philosophy, money makes a man perfect. if a man has money, all this relatives give him honor and respect. if he has no money, he gets no -- and before you didn't mean -- need money. before it is to come from love. today there is no brotherly or sisterly love. and then the final reading is from the end of the book after this journey of immersion in a handful of indian life, living through this change. a kind of summing up of many examples of what you saw there, which is profoundly new and in some ways alien ideas of what life is and should be about, pushing into a very traditional culture. and it is not a linear, simple shift the way. these things are intermingled and very much in contention with each other and it is not always

the last year you have seen these assassinations of government figures, the government of punjab, theter, they do appear to be el thes elements -- >> let's switch back to squall. -- al qaeda. they're there in some form, either the intelligence or the milita military. are there rogue operations or are they sanctioned from high up? >> my guess is that nobody at the top knew that osama bin laden was where he was. but that within elements of the isi and the military, there are friendly colonels or captains who knew that there was -- some al qaeda guy was there. maybe it was osama who provided some logistical prorts. and the higher ups have a policy of don't ask-don't tell. they don't want to know what's going on with the militant operation, what's going on with the connections with the other militant group that the isi has contact with. it's a game. you know, they main plausibility denyability at the top, but there's out there helping these guys. >> if the president of the united states call youd and said fareed look, there are republican voices and some kra democratic voices saying cut a

authority of the state of pakistan, because they have spread out into the pakistani heartland and into punjaband also as part of the mandate, if you like, to begin sectarian discord by bombing shrines and taking on the shia group, and that is very much al qaeda's mantle as well. that is what they did in iraq going after the shia. so it is a very dangerous brand of sunni, very conservative and very austere and very much attached to the sort of al qaeda wahhabi ideology, no music, the women must stay indoors and the like, and very close ideologically to what al qaeda espouses. >> is this their m.o. and what they are capable of doing or other tactics as well? >> well, other tactics, but this is typical. no accident they went after the frontier corps, because they had been responsible in all of the tribal territories for taking on the pakistani taliban and al qaeda and this is specifically an attack on them. it could be from one emir if you like from one tribal agency where the army has been busy lately. it should be stressed that the pakistani taliban are not cohesive organization led by mullah

need to conduct what will be very funny, expensive and pakistani that go beyond the fata into the punjab come in to send him into the pakistani heartland. we can affect those things by making it clear to pakistan that is proxies in afghanistan will fail and i think the strategy is advocating a negotiating with the taliban, trying to wrap this thing up is the worst thing we could possibly do from the standpoint of long-term stability in the region and well-being of pakistan because it will merely reinforced the notion fighting by proxy is a successful strategy. as for the others, we have to develop a complicated and nuanced strategy for influencing pakistan after or in tandem with our effort to show them the proxy warfare. our next witnesses will be sought jones and a senior political scientist at the rand corporation has written extensively on pakistan afghanistan and the region and spent years working with u.s. special operations forces. you're now recognize to summarize your testimony please. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, charming caine. thank you vendors of the committee for

need to conduct what will be very funny, expensive and pakistani that go beyond the fata into the punjab come in to send him into the pakistani heartland. we can affect those things by making it clear to pakistan that is proxies in afghanistan will fail and i think the strategy is advocating a negotiating with the taliban, trying to wrap this thing up is the worst thing we could possibly do from the standpoint of long-term stability in the region and well-being of pakistan because it will merely reinforced the notion fighting by proxy is a successful strategy. as for the others, we have to develop a complicated and nuanced strategy for influencing pakistan after or in tandem with our effort to show them the proxy warfare. our next witnesses will be sought jones and a senior political scientist at the rand corporation has written extensively on pakistan afghanistan and the region and spent years working with u.s. special operations forces. you're now recognize to summarize your testimony please. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, charming caine. thank you vendors of the committee for

organizations that are rather deeply rooted in pakistani society and go beyond those subsets into the punjab into the pakistani heartland. i believe u.s. policy can directly affect those by making it clear to pakistan that its proxies in afghanistan will fail and i think i strategy is advocating negotiating with the taliban, trying to wrap this thing up is the worst thing we could possibly do from a standpoint of long-term stability in the region and the well-being of pakistan because it will merely reinforce the motion that fighting by proxy is a successful strategy. as for the others, we will have to develop a complicated and nuanced strategy for influence pakistan to develop these consensus after or in tandem with our efforts to show them the proxy warfare will not succeed. thank you for the opportunity to testify. >> thank you, dr. kagan. our next witness will be the senior political scientist of reincorporation assert not pakistan, afghanistan and counterinsurgency efforts in the region and has spent years working with the u.s. special operations forces. dr. jones coming your recognize

there was another attack on a bus, suicide bomber in a bus in the heart of the punjab. this is going to be a pattern that we will see because the tariq taliban of pakistan, the ttp, the one that declared war against the state of pakistan, and has said it will avenge the death of bin laden, has associations with punjabi taliban groups in the heartland and that's going to be the way that they will try and scare the government and scare the population of pakistan. host: this coming at the same time that the u.s. drone attacks continue over pakistan. in terms of our relations with the country, what impact is that having? guest: that's a very interesting question. the real question for the pakistanis is, are they allowing the drones or will they continue to bemoan the fact that the u.s. is "infringing their sovereignty." they can't have it both ways. and in the joint session of the parliament, supposedly in camera, which we are now getting a lot of reporting from the people that attended it, when they were briefed by the head of the inter services intelligence and the air fo

there was another attack on a bus, suicide bomber in a bus in the heart of the punjab. tariq taliban of pakistan, the ttp, the one that declared war against the state of pakistan, and has said it will avenge the death of bin laden, has associations with punjabi taliban groups in the heartland and that's going to be the way that they will try and scare the government and scare the population of pakistan. host: this coming at the same time that the u.s. drone attacks continue over pakistan. in terms of our relations with the country, what impact is that having? guest: that's a very interesting question. the real question for the pakistanis is, are they allowing the drones or will they continue to bemoan the fact that the u.s. is "infringing their sovereignty." they can't have it both ways. and in the joint session of the parliament, supposedly in camera, which we are now getting a lot of reporting from the people that attended it, when they were briefed by the head of the inter services intelligence and the air force senior staff about the bin laden raid, a lot of these i

in january of this year, the governor of punjab was assassinated.his is a member of the establishment. he was assassinated because he had shown sympathy to a woman who was in jail under the anti blasphemy law. she was sentenced to death and the governor saw us as a grave injustice and said as much. he was assassinated by one of his own bodyguards as a result. what played out afterwards is what is interesting. about 500 people showed up for the funeral. the president was a close friend and could not show his face. there were 30,000 people on the state -- who showed up chanting in support of the murder. that gives you an example of what is showing up. if you look at favorability ratings, al qaeda had a higher favorability rating than the u.s. last year. i do not want to exaggerate what the polls mean, you can interpret them in many ways, but we have to seriously ask ourselves what are the larger dynamics going on in pakistan society? will digby the moderate, liberal society at some of the questions that will feed into the debate about pakistan's democ