by 2030, these energy efficiency savings go to 11 quaddrillion b.t.u.'s, this is incredible and that's what you are getting at, there are other efficiencies that can be achieved that will lead to savings to consumers that we haven't calculated. mr. heinrich: what my friend from virginia is describing is a conservative position and that is one of the ironies in all of this when you realize that we have nonrenewable resources and they are very valuable and cost us billions of dollars. to stretch those out and utilize them more effectively, that is a conservative position not to waste them but to utilize them as efficiently as we possibly can. i remember during the campaign of 2008, there was the whole issue of hearing rush limbaugh that a tire gauge could be of any valuable at all. we will fight like dogs and cats over this postage stamp of oil and gas in alaska, the same of which which can be con served that the people could use the tire gauges, that is a fundamental irony. we are going to continue to use oil and gas and continue to use coal. we should us