guest: last i heard he was selling his book at gun shows and having your photograph taken with randy weaver for $5. randy, i hope you won't mind me saying this. in public he was very -- and he said he is not worth more than my dog to me and implied that i rarely got the sense that randy shoulders a terrible burden. he knows he was part of the escollation of hostility and his family and vicky would be alive if he didn't act the way he did. >> host: jon ronson how do you get to know these people? why do they say yes to you? >> guest:uest: well the older i get the more i see my older human beings being fully rounded and empthetic complicated human beings with a mix of wisdom and stupidity. there are exceptions for the people of course. but most people you meet are lovely people. randy is a complicated person but lovely. i spent time with diagnosed psychopaths in secure units and found many positive traits. with my new book "so you've been publicly shamed" it is all about that. it is about let's find the people that we we social justice people despite the people who of society have no merit and

have your picture taken with randy weaver for $100 or something. randy despite the people we decided have no merits. they have no merit. and you know give them back their human qualities. their empathy and passion i only tell a story i passionately want to tell so i go to people and i think the passion i think you can see that. >> host: somebody you talk to about your new book was featured in your new book "so you've been publicly shamed". let's watch a little bit of video here and we will come back. >> there are no perimeters about how people publicly observe you and put you in a public stock age and there is a personal price publican of the asian and the growth of the internet has jacked up that price. reality programming, politics, news outlets and hackers all traffic in shame. it is a permissive environment online which lends itself to trolling invasion of privacy. >> trafficking in a shame. on social media we feel we are like unpaid shaming intern's for google and twitter out there making good money people shaming and we are getting nothing and

randy weaver is certainly flawed and i'm sure feels partly responsible for what happened to his family i'm sure he does but nonetheless, it was a really interesting story for me as a journalist where the weaver family were the kind of you know, were the kind of heart of the story and everything that entails. i had never written a story where the people and most people would think of them as the villains were the people who i was feeling great sympathy and empathy for but i should explain what the story is because i think a lot of people have forgotten it. family of white separatist conspiracy theorist believing in bilderberg and all of this stuff, the world order goes to the top of a mountain in idaho because they say if you can't live on top of the mountain in idaho where can you live? the big error was they would go to the nearby aryan nation the white supremacy place and randy insists that he was never a white supremacist, but there was a kind of oval vin diagram up with the weavers believed in what the white supremacists believe that he never considered himself as a hardliner. anyw

are involved in a deadly confrontation in northern idaho with an alleged white supremacist named randy weaverected of selling illegal firearms. during an 11-day standoff, weaver's son, his wife and a deputy u.s. marshal are killed. then on february 28th, 1993, following a gun battle between the atf and members of a religious group called the branch davidians, federal agents lay siege to the group's compound near waco, texas. a suspected cache of illegal weapons is at the center of the controversy. >> mcveigh was just absolutely in a rage over both of those incidents, but the one thing that pushed him over the edge and turned him into a terrorist was the waco incident. >> at one point, mcveigh drives to waco to observe the siege. >> he went and parked his car nearby and selling anti-government pamphlets, giving interviews to at least one reporter back then about how much he distrusted the u.s. government. >> during an assault by the fbi on april 19th, the branch davidian compound is engulfed by fire. at least 76 men, women and children die during the inferno. >> mcveigh told us that he was con