nermeen: rashad robinson, could you respond that? is the policing on trial? e s led a campaign to expose police unions. could you explain what role you think police unions play? rashad: it is a multi-part strategy. on one hand you end up with the unions to lobby for policy qualified immunity. it was just outlawed in new york city. police officers are not typically liable for anything they do on the job. they could build up these big funds to pay f the legal defense of someone like derek chauvin and police officers around the country. they never have to raise money to actually do civil defenses. they are only dealing with a small level of liability. police officers could treat our people like community combatants. they could make sure they are fired for something. they could get jobs in other cities and they are shielded. the police officer killed tamir rice is working somewhere else anwe don't evennow what tamir rice loo like. watch as theynject llions upon mlions ofollars io elections toe able tsway the political prospect of accountability. all of these thing

we're trying to get rashad robinson back. i had a bit of a technical issue with his camera. chief, let's continue with this conversation. you work with, have worked with departments across the country. i'm sure still tied in to the law enforcement community, and making changes in some of these departments. what changes are they considering? which should they make? >> well, i was saying earlier, there have been a lot of events across the country that have brought up issues that departments need to look at. and what most departments need to look at are the use of force policies, their internal affairs policy, their reviews of how they conduct their practices, because you can have a policy, but if you don't go in and audit how your people are performing, you know, practice these policies is the same. and if you people are not doing what your policy says and if your supervisors are not out there watching what's going on and conducting audits of her personnel's actions and performance, correcting when necessary and disciplining when necessary, then those policies really come to n

joining me now, rashad robinson, president of color of change, and nicole gonzalez van cleave, she's an associate professor of sociology at brown university and the author of "crook county: racism and injustice in america's largest criminal court." nicole, i want to start with the police killing of adam toledo. prosecutors originally said the 13-year-old had a gun in his hand when an officer shot him. the police video clearly shows that is not the case. you argue that this type of defense is baked into the culture in cook county and other jurisdictions across the country. tell me more. >> i think what most americans don't understand is that prosecutors align themselves with police all the time. they need police to win cases and if they don't win cases, they don't get promoted. so in some ways, when something goes wrong, like the shooting death of a child, no matter what happens, what the police say, this happens in patterned ways. it's taught through generations of prosecutors. there's no manual to look this up. it's just part of the training. in my research in cook county, in chicag