rating agencies. one of the things we want to hear from our regular should a is where we are in that process. the other thing that is still of concern to some folks is the fact there still continues to be a concentration in just three of those agencies. between moody's and standard & poor's and fitch that the cover but 90% of the ratings. 90% of the revenue. some people are concerned that access for other entities become in rso's is limited. particularly when you look at some of the regulation that is coming out and making a more and more burdensome and more difficult for the first to come into the. i think we will hear something about that today. also of interest to me is the fact that when we looked at the fact that some people say that we ended too big to fail with dodd-frank. some of us do not believe that that actually ended too big to fail, but many of us somewhat believe it probably contributed to furthering too big to fail. when you look at the major financial institutions in this country, a l

> with you think about a state run ratings agency issuing national ratings, it is hard to see those ratings as credible. >> whether or not investors believe that will ultimately be repaid. >> it is not just about creating new rating agencies, rising economies are also calling for the establishment of independent agencies in their own countries. and there are calls for 80-20 agency as well. they point to the example of italy this week but came under attack by financial markets. the country is the third largest economy in europe. the borrowing rates are a white- collar form of strongarm robbery. a specially as rome is considering more cuts. >> other crisis, at this time is italy's finances in trouble. national that is almost 120% of gdp. twice the amount allowed. the headline spell out and doom and gloom. but the finance minister says he has everything under control. not all italians are convinced it is over yet. >> there is a lot of speculation because there are a number of lobbies that govern this country. they see their own -- the middle class gets poorer and poorer. the rich stay rich. th

we would pay the 25% tax rate and an additional 10% as far as the u.s. rate. all sell, and it comes into play when even acquiring the business, and then, as i mentioned, tesco is now building stores and growing in the u.s. we are actually opening the door for foreign retailers to have an easier entry to compete in the united states against u.s.-based retailer's. >> senator, i think mr. duke is spot on. i would add we have other countries out democrats -- we have other companies out then that the same principles that mr. duke mentioned apply and they create competitive challenges. >> thank you. time has expired. >> thank you. senator conrad. >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you very much for holding this hearing. it is so important. i was part of the fiscal commission as was the chairman of the committee. i have been part of the group of six. they concluded you have to have fundamental tax reform to broaden the base, laurates to help us be more competitive. at the same time to raise additional revenue to couple with entitlement reform and to couple with dom

and this sec data include the rating.he sec, issued what is called a no action letter and said we will not penalize you for this. and under the statute, yes, if people now disregard any federally imposed requirement they be removed by the rating agencies, that's no longer in effect. they know longer have to worry about that. some of them have their self-imposed rules, i would advise them, take ratings-- don't make it automatic. and communities in the district i represent that are being threatened with a downgrade, this is zero chance of them not making a payment and if i were in charge of their investment i would disregard the rating agencies. >> neil: but there would be more chances of not making a payment if the government goes up against the deadline tuesday. >> no, not in these committees. depends, if you notice what the market has been doing, short-term, long-term thing. short-term paper could be a problem, but most of the municipalities i'm talking about, i'm trying to protect them from paying more, fire buildings,

interest rates would jump. treasury rates are the benchmark of interest rates. mortgage rates and all other interest rates would rise. of course, that would also increase the federal deficit because we have to pay the interest part of that. if the treasury cut back as it would be required to do, it would mean that there would be a significant reduction in both the payments and benefits, payments for services, so people would see that in terms of their medicare check or whatever other benefits they are getting. without much delay, this would also slow the economy and the job situation will get worse. in almost every area, where people have concerns, all of -- jobs, interest rates, credit, availability of government payments, benefits, all of those things would be affected in relatively short order. >> thank you for briefly explaining all of that. chairman, it even though home -- chairman bernanke, even though home prices have only slightly declined, high-cost housing areas like hawaii are still feeling the full effects of a week housing market. -- weak housing ma

rate. and four, the incentive to distribute earnings in a manner to avoid or reduce a second level of tax. we also need to consider once again the issue of repatriation. many u.s. multinational corporations earn money overseas and will typically want to bring that money back home to the united states. however, our corporate tax system discourages or penalizes u.s. multinational corporations, including utah multinational corporations, from repatriating foreign earnings by imposing a 35% residual u.s. tax at the time of repatriation. as a result, several high- profile u.s. multinational corporations are sitting on large piles of cash burn from foreign operations. yet, these same corporations are borrowing money. one of the reasons is that their cash is trapped offshore. because of our tax system, these corporations keep their money offshore and borrow money in united states. one way of alleviating the problem is for the u.s. to reform its corporate tax and international tax rules by, for exam

our corporate tax rate has a top-rated 35%. when coupled with the state tax rate it's usual 49%. as a result the u.s. has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. it's in the need of reform and the high corporate tax means it needs to be a major part of this discussion. and i'm very interested to hear what our witnesses have to say today with regard to the corporate tour and the corporate tax system and how it affected hiring again, thank you very much. for scheduling this important hearing. >> i'd like to introduce our witnesses. first, mr. michael duke. the president of wal-mart stores, the world's largest retailer. combleeg 2.1 million peel. second, chairman and c.e.o. of kimberly clark. kimberly clarke, the world's top maker of personal products. and next is mr. gregory lang, the president and c.e.o. from the manufacturing company and president and c.e.o. of caremark corporation the leading drugstore chains and providers. gentlemen, you probably know the rules statements will automatically be included in the record and we encourage you summarize your statements. a

the issue is on the finalized rate, those rates change every day. you'd have to give some authority within that period in terms of appropriating any reserves to make them meaningful, you would have to have the preparation in front of you and the goal would be to have that corp. happen with the contract. you would be signing the contract knowing what it cost and appropriating the money to do it. one issue that is a problem is that cpuc bond. that is out of our control when that might happen. the project is contingent on that, we pretty much go as far as we can and we stop. that could be a very long time. that is the problem we have had. >> i appreciate that. at the moment i am not comfortable saying i am ready to proceed without knowing. it is such a potentially big ticket item. that seems unwise. >> [inaudible] >> i think so. >> maybe you could move it along a little bit. >> sorry. >> that is ok. >> the details are on here. the general concept is we are here today to get your feedback. the resolution is adopted and it will be presented to the board

if you're one, you already know that a good credit rating will nab you the lowest rates on a home or auto loan. but it also gets you access to some pretty good deals elsewhere too. credit cards have notoriously high rates, averaging more than 14%. but many credit card issuers seek out top credit score holders by offering significantly lower rates and lucrative cash-back deals. having a high credit score will also give you more leverage negotiating a car purchase. car dealers make the most on financing. dealers are typically locked into preset rates, but if you say you can get a better loan deal elsewhere, you may be able to knock a few hundred dollars off the car's sticker price. a good credit score can also make the difference when you're applying for a rental apartment or a vacation home. a solid credit score is a sign that you'll be a responsible tenant and gives you room to negotiate on price. that's something you can really enjoy when you're kicking back at the beach. i'm donna rosato. >> susie: you can find more of donna's tips for building and maintaining good credit on our we

ratings on. >> mr. rowan, how long have you been with moody's? >> for about 15 years. >> fifteen years. so certainly you remember six or seven years ago enron and worldcom went bankrupt. moody's had rated both of those entities as investment grade five days before the filing for bankruptcy year had moody's been stand by its ratings and filing quarterly updates, investors would have had better information about what was coming down the pipe, would they have not? >> i believe that moody's had continuously reviewed and monitored those ratings. and that as information becomes available, it is incorporated into the rating. and those ratings, and issues surrounding those events, i fairly well documented, congressman. i don't know whether or not a quarterly would have changed those ratings. >> mr. gellert? >> thank you, congressman. rapid ratings had enron at below investment in the mid '90s. rerating things on a quarterly basis is an accurate perspective of the credit quality as it changes. companies do not m

credit rating which is applied to a bond and if a bond doesn't meet that credit rating an investor is simply not allowed to buy it so i think it's important in that sense it's important also because it sets a psychological tone but i think we shouldn't over exaggerate their role because often the ratings agencies themselves are merely following what the market has already done so if the market is already moved to raise the interest rate on a country's debt significantly then the ratings agency will view that as having been a sustainable move and then will move its own rating to exhibit of interaction there's a bit of ebb and flow there's a bit of a two way movement there but they are very important in setting minimum criteria against which investors can actually buy bonds now they love why do you think that they're attracting all these complaints from politicians. what's a very good question actually at the moment attracting a lot of complaints simply because they're doing the job rather well now the ratings agencies quite justifiably came in for a lot of criticism during the global f

if you look at our current 8.5% sales tax rate, as mr. wagner noted, down from 9.5% on june 30 -- almost 2/3 of that flows to the state itself. a small piece is then reallocated back out to local governments. about 1% of it, in a sense, flows directly to the city's general fund, and that rate fluctuates in different jurisdictions, based on choices voters have made. in san francisco, we have about 1.25% of the 8.25% that flows to in part, the transportation authority, and our schools. in effect, this proposal would create a new 0.5% that would be dedicated within the local category to support current the general fund supported expenditures -- currently general fund supported expenditures. as we discussed in the report itself, our sales tax rate in san francisco is comparatively higher than most other jurisdictions in the state. with this change, we would have the highest sales tax rate of the largest tent cities in california. as you can see from this chart, this proposal would move our sales tax rate in san francisco from kind of mid to h

statutory rate and the chinese rate when we bring that money home. the result is that we are often out bid for retail side because companies with lower overall tax rates have a lower cost of capital -- we are often outbid for sites. the keys to tax reform are to lower the corporate rate, get rid of incentives that benefit some industries over others, and level the international plainfield with a territorial system. if we take these steps -- and level international playing field with a territorial system. more job creation at home. thank you, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much, mr. duke. >> chairman, ranking member, and distinguished members of the committee. they keep for allowing me to share my views. please, i would like to provide a brief overview of kimberly- clark and then discuss why we believe the current u.s. tax system hinders growth and puts american companies and workers at a competitive disadvantage. kimber the clerk will be 140 years old in 2012 -- kimberly- clark will be 140 years old. through the years, we hav

>> those rates, which i did, the higher rates really reflect the parking. we have a side business in truck parking. very few places in the city you can park 16 wheeler's. it is really more of a correction in pier 80. the average tenants are about $1.25 per square foot. that is a matter of controlling the lot. we believe if you are paying $1.25 per square foot, $185 for a parking space may be part of it is to keep that business in the city. we think $40 is more in line with the market. whereas, by way of example, pier 9 we have a high occupancy rate and we charge $360. >> so pier 80, the use requires you to arrive in your vehicle? >> no public trash -- no public transportation. >> pier 9 is covered office space, right at your front door, premium parking. >> i think the rate should go higher. >> next year. did that answer your question, commissioner? >> is there any public comment on this item? ok, thank you. >> item 10 a., request authorization for award of a contract for professional services for master planning and preliminary design of the proposed pier 7

your own work on the european debt and each times the conclusion was the same rating these the rating is correct the only problem that we've got that's maybe on the agenda was you don't grading some of the european officials. as rating agencies start the communication but you can understand that we are exactly far from the rule or visual rules of rating agencies which is to do all the units all the opinions nothing more. so it's an opinion as you say and nothing more but as we've reported the latest wave of panic spreads island on many that wondering whether the crisis is about to ignite and there's just a final thing. i think this fear could be just defined by investors about it again or that's not the cycle given by the adjustments which in theory are in process it's real easy station operating and really there are different problems to the european countries we got into but the gate and we've got a real real big issue considering the cash in which there is not can't even find an end to the refinance in some distant countries because of the illegal groups that benefit is coming from

interest rates would jump. treasury rates are the benchmark of interest rates. if the treasury cut back as it would be required to do, it would mean that there would be a significant reduction in both the payments and benefits, payments for services, so people would see that in terms of their medicare check or whatever other benefits they are getting. without much delay, this would also slow the economy and the job situation will get worse. in almost every area, where people have concerns, all of those things would be affected in relatively short order. >> thank you for briefly explaining all of that. chairman, it even though home prices have only slightly declined, high-cost housing areas like hawaii are still feeling the full effects of a week housing market. mortgage credit is still limited and the concern for the future is that mortgages are performing worse than those backed by the government. below midst -- allow limits are scheduled to step down later this year. do you think it is a good idea to allow the limits to decrease? how might lower limits might a

financial securities, that will also force up the interest rates on your adjustable rate credit card. chip reid has that part of the story. >> reporter: at tyson's corner mall in northern virginia, cristina salamone says she tries to avoid using credit cards. >> i try not to even use a credit card because of the outrageous rates. >> reporter: especially now with new baby daniel, and the last thing she needs is higher interest rates. but that is exactly what will happen if congress fails to reach a deal to raise the debt limit, according to john ulzheimer of smartcredit.com. >> if the u.s. defaults on this debt, it's highly likely the consumer who has a credit card with a variable rate is going to see their interest rate go up between 1% and 5%. >> reporter: what does that mean in dollars? on a 10,000 dollar balance, it would cost more than $25,000 to pay off. but if the rate rises to 20% a new $10,000 balance would cost more than $45,000. for cristina salamone, that would be incentive to avoid the mall all together. >> i'm not going to use my credit card then. >> reporter: you're not

on work on the european debt and each times the conclusion was the same rating the rating is correct the only problem that we've got that's maybe on the agenda of the don't grating some of the european officials trying to ask rating agencies to stop the communication but you can understand that we are exactly far from rule rules or rates which is to give you obedience only an opinion it's nothing more. and it's an opinion as you say and nothing more but as we've reported the latest wave of panic now spread to island many that wondering whether the crisis is about to ignite and fans just to find anything. i think fear could be just defined by investors but again that's not the sign of a justice which is the fear in process it's real easy enough i don't really there are different problems to see it's a big european countries we are going to see that we did it and we've got a real real big issue considering the cash in which does not call me to find instances of the refinancings of these two countries because also to make them groups that benefit is coming from the lake of groups in cou

may lose its aaa credit rating and everyone of course is worried but these ratings agencies were so worried about how the shoddy track record to begin with joe weisenthal from the business of business insiders going to be here to talk about that and don't forget at the same time folks we are still out war a few of them actually at a price we cannot separate from our fiscal crisis any longer yet it is all being overshadowed by money talk we will tell you all the details you need to know about afghanistan pakistan and other places where the u.s. is dropping bombs still plus senators may be sneakily in talks to renew a law that lets by agencies track your location at any time with no oversight we'll have all of that and more on tonight's show but first what did the mainstream media . all right as the fall continues to threaten the country the mainstream media took a break from their coverage of that to report on the horrible fate that has bee fallen a popular game show host take a look. game show host alex alex through back found himself in serious jeopardy when police say an intruder broke in

rates. as a result, some states would be forced to cut services, others would opt to hike taxes. add it all up, and economists say debt negotiations could have serious economic consequences. >> you could wind up losing the job that you have. you could wind up destroying consumer confidence and pulling consumer spending back even more. and there's a very real chance this could precipitate a recession. >> reporter: unfortunately, even if the us keeps its triple-a rating, there will likely be fallout. brusca says just having the debate get this close to the deadline undermines investor confidence in the u.s. government. erika miller, "nightly business report," new york. >> tom: the lack of a debt deal hasn't jarred stock or bond investors. after all, stock prices haven't crashed and interest rates haven't shot higher despite predictions of an economic calamity if the u.s. government goes into default. we spoke with lane jones, the chief investment officer at wealth management firm evensky and k

>> it would be a subsidized rate. the generation co our service is higher than the generation component of pg&e's service. the overall discount will be comparable. and we're working out the details on how that discount will be applied. president vietor: that will be on the term sheet as well? >> it is more of a rate-making issue. we have discussed it with shell so they understand. but it is more of a rate making issue. president vietor: isn't that going to be part of the financial discussion of what needs to be put up up front and the numbers will play out? >> yes, but what the total revenue stream is that shelled needs to support the program -- that shell needs to support the program, and the dividing up peace is something we have discretion over. >> and you'll be getting a rate package also. that is not until early next year. president vietor: so that is not going to be part of the terms are contract. >> he will be able to make a decision about how you want the rates to look as long as the result in the total amount

not rate those loans. so we had people along the way who were jumping up and down in warning, but -- so there are some heros in the book, i'm glad to say. >> thank you. >> you make a very strong case for the central role of housing policy and the behavior of the gses as factors in the build-up to the crisis. but i have never been able to understand how housing policy leads private investment banks to go bankrupt. it seems to me that when bear and lehman went bankrupt, that it seemed like there was a lot of mere incompetence or possibly malfeasance, and the behavior of those institutions and many others that contributed to the failure of those institutions. i see no obvious causal connection from the housing policies to mistakes in investment banks. i wondered what your theory of those mistakes is. >> well, certainly, bear stearns is a huge player in the mortgage market, and the fact that the leverage that these firms were allowed to take on which was something that henry paulson importuned the sec to allow

>> those rates, which i did, the higher rates really reflect the parking. we have a side business in truck parking. parking. very few places in the city you

if the rating changes of our country and debt. >> your rate may go up. >> our rates are going to change and that's going to cost a lot. >> i agree that it's not the same. i would say the closest annualo for many people is how much money they have invested in their house which may not be worth what it was when they paid for it. >> this is huge. we had a big report from pew research center about the drop in minority wealth. the biggest culprit is the housing market. so much of the net worth put in the housing market. the best thing you can do in times like this when nervous is diversify. if you diversify your holdings and assets no one thing can bring you down. >> john, talk about this for a second, we've talked about the this debt discussion causing interest rates to go up. you know what, we were probably due to see interest rates going up in the longer term anyway. we have historically low interest rates. what does the person watching this show need to think about with respect to interest rates car men was mentioning. >> if you're managing your credit like the country is managing its cr

, that we would not a flat rate. we also are considering working on maintaining a great benefit for low-income customers. they would be eligible for the same program. rate stability. we're looking at a 4.5 your program, contract, rather, what show. and this is to assure that the rates stay stable over time. we're being prudent and doing a reserve. the cfo taught to -- talked about that a bit. this is for each year of the contract. i do not mean the same number over 4.5 years. but we do know what that is for each year of the contract. we know that at the outset. president vietor: how is the reserve account funded? >> the reserve account will be funded from customers, part of the rate. i will leave the rate and finance questions for mr. r ydstrom, if i may. through our conversations with shell and doing market research, what we have brought back and spoken to you about in the past, we really could be offering renewable power on day one. in terms of the rate premium, it is not so significant for customer preferences. we

well no hang on a second you know these ratings are indicative the whole point of a ratings agency is to basically give someone a school report it tells you that you know if johnson isn't doing his work then johnson needs to improve cetera no realistically i think the question the ratings agencies must ask themselves because they were at fault here was why they didn't give better ratings a couple of years ago when it was absolutely clear to a large number of us that the european union have really significant problems and they were caught up in the way of the euro euphoria that was going on at that stage however you know they're just doing their jobs and frankly the business of shooting masson sure isn't going to get anybody anywhere i mean that would be as ridiculous as saying we shouldn't discuss this on russia today because actually once the truth gets there and once we have a greater discussion but that's going to be for the economy it's a very very unfortunate situation and actually the e.u. itself has been dragging its feet for eighteen months over problems in portugal and greece

treasury rates are the benchmark interest rate, so interest -- so mortgage rates would rise. of course, that would also increase the federal deficit because we pay the interest on the debt as part of our spending. if the treasury cut back, as it would be required to do, it would mean that there would be a significant reduction in both payments, benefits, payments for services, aid to the armed forces, and so on. people would see that in terms of their medicare check or whatever benefits they are getting. without much delay, i'd think this would also slow the economy. the job situation would get worse. almost every area where people have concerns -- jobs, interest rates, credit, availability of government benefits -- all those things would be affected. >> thank you for briefly explaining all that. chairman bernanke, even though home prices have only slightly declined, high-cost housing areas like hawaii are still feeling the effects of the weak housing market. mortgage credit is still limited. concern for the future is that they are performing worse than those sold to or backe

their rates per se don't go up, but they do pay more taxes. could you live with that as part of the deal? >> i could live with that as part of the deal as long as you don't move the goal post and as long as you don't raise the rates. the american people have made it real clear, and to the credit of the house of representatives, the republicans, and representative boehner, they are listening to the american people, neil. so, yes, i believe people can live with that as long as you don't raise the rates. that's the line in the sand for that i don't blame representative boehner from walking out. >> neil: you would support, you're popular with the tea party, they love you, practically a god to them. >> no. >> neil: here you are one of their heroes, saying you would in fact be open to some things, revenue enhancers, whatever you want to call them that speaker boehner and republican leaders were looking at as long as you don't raise the rates. many in the tea party don't share that view. anytime you're looking at doing something like that, you are ef

credit rating is downgraded, interest rates will rise across the board.rds, car loans, adjustable rate mortgages will all be paying more. >> all these rates are tied together. >> pretty much, yeah. so basically, if the government has to pay more on its debt, we have to pay more on our debt. >> reporter: and farnoosh has got some advice if that happens. >> if you have an adjustable rate mortgage, maybe right now between now and august 2nd you want to shop around for a fixed rate because essentially a fixix rate is security. but if you're for example a student right now shopping for a student loan, i would opt for the federal loans first. they have lower interest rates. they're fixed. >> reporter: most important, she says, pay down your credit card debt. and save more. in the end, we are all at the mercy of political events here, and of what those guys at the credit rating agencies do. it just doesn't seem fair that what's happening in washington, which is primarily a political fight, a partisan political fight, could have such a significant impact on the l

that risk is measured by the ratings agencies. >> the influence of ratings agencies lies on the one hand in the way their evaluation system has been incorporated into legislation. on the other hand, many business contracts are tied to the marks of the ratings agencies. that means certain private investors will only invest if there is a certain rating. >> one such example is the insurance giant allianz, which relies on ratings agencies to invest huge amounts of capital. but that system historically failed on a massive scale and when the agencies gave some prime mortgage bundles high ratings, triggering the financial crisis in 2008. not only companies but countries such as portugal paper ratings agencies for their assessments. potential conflict of interest is another weakness in the current system. but few would argue portugal's downgrading to junk status is any sign of favoritism. >> traditionally, dusseldorf has been germany's fashion capital. but in recent years it has lost some of its fire. that could be changing. there is a fashion trade fair that ends today. we stopped by before the

the credit rating itself, the the credit rating itself, the credit worthiness opinion by the ratingsncies, is one factor investors use in determining how to price these securities. host: kurt schacht received his b.s. and law degree from the university of wisconsin. he served as general counsel and chief operating officer of a hedge fund, and he is currently at the managing director of the cfa institute. what kind of people go to work for these credit agencies? for these credit agencies? guest: well, people that are interested in and have an application for a fairly detailed analysis of companies and issuers and sovreigns and the range of organizations raided by credit rating agencies. there are a number of charter holders that have professional training as financial analysts that are employees of the credit ratings agencies. it is people that have that sort of interest. is a very important function -- it is a very important function, as we know, and it attracts a fairly high caliber level analysts. what happened three or four years ago does not necessarily reflect that in terms of t

by 1% bringing the tax rate from 9.5% to 8.5%. this was done over the objection of the governor. we would like to get the sales tax at the existing rate. we would like to offset some of the deeper cuts that were on the table absent that extension and the extension of some other revenues at the state level. as this discussion was playing out at the capitol in sacramento, in the mayor's office, we were developing the mayor's budget proposal and looking at some of the proposed cuts that were on the table and ultimately made the decision that the uncertainty about what was going to happen in sacramento and what the implications of that work for the city which were unacceptable and we did not want to wait and see what happened, we wanted to take matters into our own hands. as a result, the mayor has proposed the measure that is before you. essentially, what it would do is that it would replace half of the 1% reduction in the sales tax rate with a local sales tax. again, our sales tax have just decline from 9.5% to 8.5%. we would still

you'll get a better rate. if you have a bad credit rating. >> right.ly, the first auction of these treasuries is august 4th. >> two days. $87 billion. so it would begin almost immediately. and you would really see til pack. what's interesting about the american public is, a couple months ago, most americans when you asked them about raising the debt ceiling, they say, well, about 40% said maybe you have to do it. now that has completely flipped. and people understand the importance of raising the debt ceiling. there are some republican who's believe in the house in particular, who believe that it is not a real date. you want to take that chance? >> and some other republicans especially in the house. here's what i don't understand. if the polls are accurate reflection of the mood out there, why would the speaker john boehner want a second vote next year in this whole issue to come up once again just as the election, everyone is getting ready for a congressional election. >> fundamentally they think the first down payment. the first phase of the boehner

tax rates on anybody. we're going to do all by changing tax expendituresnd loopholes. >> rose: just for a moment, how does that difr from what the deficit commission recommended? >> it is very much in line with the bowles-spson commission. >> rose: exactly. >> andthey said let's lowe people's marginal tax rates, i believe prove incentives but nevertheless collect mor revenue... >> rose: by eliminating loopholes and deductions. >> by shrinking the allowable amount of them. >> rose: and how is it different what the gang of six seems to believe in? >> i think they were moving in that direction. >> rose: exactly. >> they can't make it happen mostly because of grover norqst. >> rose: explain grover norquist... explain who he is. why he has so ch power. >> very successful, very savvy republican operative who has created the taxpayer pledge which basically gets politicians to agree they won't raise taxes and he is no dummy. he includes in that pledge the idea that they can't raise taxes by getting rid of opholes.