ratesook at the interest as an input. there are a lot of other places you can look that are in the lead relative to the u.s.. in the u.s., our cycle is holding up in the rates are higher because you have this aggressive fiscal stimulus, and a strong underlying economy. but it is not just the pan and europe where the rates are down there, or slightly below and they are stuck there. if the rates were too low, you would see aggressive borrowing, the balloon getting pumped up and the need for higher rates to slow it down. you don't see that. you also don't see it in australia, new zealand, where they have strong population growth. those places are 1.5%, one .75% -- 1.75% and maybe heading lower all around the world. u.s. rates are really at the top of the heap. in the long run, the fed fund rate will average between zero and three, i don't think you'll have 10-year treasuries averaging something 2.5 or higher, and i think that is why we are stuck here. kathleen: that sounds like a very logical argument, but we are talking abo