what brings you to this issue of redistricting?uest: i was in the justice department for 21 years, in the voting rights section, the civil rights division. i looked at a lot of redistricting plans in that capacity when i was in the death -- when i was in the justice department. i left in 1994. i have done a lot of litigation in the area of redistricting and was retained to represent certain members of the congressional black caucus. whose tissues were struck down in the 1990's in wake of the supreme court decision. -- whose issues were struck dumb. then i was retained as general counsel by the national democratic party's redistricting party, impact 2000. host: is a more democratic or republican party? guest: it is split pretty evenly. republicans control more of legislatures and governorships in states where they had a monopoly. this time you see more split control. neighboring virginia is a good example where you have a democratic governor and senator and republican-controlled house. that means you either compromise to get a plan

you with redistricting. host: between censuses? guest: right. you can minimize the minority party, which everyone it happens to be, and throughout the decade the party will never be able to recapture the seats taken away. host: our guest is with us until 9:30 a.m. eastern. his the project manager for this organization. there is a bill proposed before congress that would change congressional redistricting. under the bill -- this is john tanner of tennessee as one of the sponsors -- it would have a minimum of five members. redo independents -- where are they and all this? guest: typically, the way that they work in the states is that major political parties in the last election, the leaders of those two -- it could be independent or green in some states, they get to choose persons to be on the redistricting commission. there's nothing to preclude democrats or republicans from appointing an independent to the commission, but it is usually seen as a process where democrats will. democrats and so on. host: what i

they may vote for the same candidates, but if the problem of racial redistricting is as acute as we hear it described, i think the problem of partisan redistricting is also a very, very acute problem and closely related. and part of the polarization we get if american politics, at least for districted representative bodies like the house or the state legislatures, comes from the fact that we do now have a system that permits very aggressive manipulation of the design of these districts for lots of purposes, in order to concentrate particular kinds of voters in particular districts. so i like to think of this problem as a subset of that larger problem, with those questions and thoughts, i will turn it over to michael. [applause] >> thank you. i should begin by endorsing abbey's book and recommending that you all buy it. it's really a terrific -- for those of you who either know about the voting rights act or don't know a lot about it, it's a terrific way of looking at the evolution over the last 40 or so years of the issues that have come up, interest a sociological, political science and

how are they deciding whose redistricting plans are going to be submitted to a bunch of bureaucrats in 2030? presidential turnout in the 1964 and 1972 election. well, that doesn't -- you couldn't issue dog licenses on the basis of that, because it would be this congress in 1965 said we're going to divvy up the covered and non-covered jurisdictions by looking at the presidential election results on who ran against fdr. most people -- by own guess is, they probably will strike it down on that basis, with a lot of language saying of course if congress does look at this and come up with a formula, they can reenact section 5. my own view is congress can enact that formula, because the minute you bring a non-covered jurisdiction in, you lose all those votes and there's literally no formula that remotely includes most of them and excludes others. it i am right, and it is struck down, it will be an interesting shows logical experiment -- shows logical payment to see what happens to minority voting power without section 5. my own prediction it, it will have virtually no negative impact. you mig

i think if congress had focused on access to the ballot box if 2006, and left the redistricting issue aside, the supreme court's reaction to the statute might have been very, very different, because there's a lot more con cessors -- consensus to access at the ballot box. second thing i wanted to say is you bring up something i wanted to mention to come back to michael, which is part of the reason for my resistance to accepting a black or white position, as he put it, is it's an enormously vast country, you have rural areas of mississippi an of georgia, which are not like new york city, and i would like to see a voting rights act regime, which is much more flexible and dynamic, you know, that recognizes these kinds of differences, even though i realize that it won't lead to, you know, simple bright lines tests, and part of the frustration with congress in 2006 is that it was unable to get to square one and even think about any of these kinds of distinctions, which is why i don't think it's going to get a very receptive audience from the supreme court. >> well, let me just say, one word

that would require redistricting in about 16 states. caller: thank you for taking my call this is my first time. this is an important topic. i live in new jersey, democratic governor, who is spending. there is a time when there were many school budgets that were defeated, especially in this difficult time. . they spent $17,000 per student with poor results. the other average district spend about $13,000. what is the constitutionality of the present situation and how does he feel it will affect education? guest: this is an extremely important. redistricting affects the issues that impact their lives very directly. when you elect a legislature and your congressional members, that often determines what resources will be allocated in your state. also how they will be allocated. this depends on whether one or the other party is in control. members of the legislature can say what their priority is and each member that is elected typically will look at their own single-member district and make sure they bring the bacon home for their district.

some have argued only through the early '80s a round of redistricting and the early map-drawing of the early 1990s justice department intervention or threatened intervention was at least partly responsible for the 14 new majority black congressional districts that were created all but two in the south. that produced a jump in the number of southern blacks in the u.s. house of representatives from 5 to 17. the importance of those gains cannot be lightly dismissed. as uncomfortable as i am with what chief justice john roberts has called all this divvying up, all this racial sorting. many conservatives dismiss the importance of descriptive representation. blacks representing blacks. but the history of legislatures in the south in which only whites sat made the presence of blacks both symbolically and substantively important. racially integrated legislative settings worked to change racial attitudes, most southern whites had little or no experience working with blacks as equal and undoubtedly saw skin color as telling in terms of talent and competence. when blacks became legislative collea

host: jerry lifehebert is the project manager for redistricting reform. we will see if you are as optimistic on the white house -- these are comments on the presidential adviser yesterday. this is the headline in "the financial times." she hopes for a v-shaped recovery. the u.s. economy will feel a substantial boost from the obama administration's emergency spending package over the next few months. christina rohmer has warned against tightening monetary and fiscal policy before career is well-established. she is the chairman of the council of economic advisers. she told us in an interview that 2 is more -- that she is more optimistic that the economy is approaching stabilization. she comments that as the opposition republicans step up their attacks on the stimulus, it has not prevented unemployment from hitting a quarter-century high of 9.4%. that is from yesterday in that interview in the paper. this is on the front page of "the baltimore sun" which says that new jobs and not likely. as the economy rebounds higher unemployment in jobless recovery is for

why should this just apply to certain states and counties in virginia so they all have to submit redistricting. >> all of the districts must submit their applications. most of them do not show a history of segregation. my state of vermont is one of the most fair in the country. we do not have a racial imbalance in vermont, we're probably the most homogeneous state in the country. but what we do is we know the areas where there have been problems, and new areas have problems. this is done in a careful way and this has been working very well. one of those areas where this was -- submitted, they have to submit the program and they do not mind. they say this is a way to keep them honest. i go back to the day of brown vs. board of education, when that segregation was made illegal, i was 18 years old, getting ready for my junior year in college, and i saw for the first time science that still said, colored and whites only. and they remember this even though this was against the law in richmond. this is not only getting rid of the legal segregation, this is the active segregation. >> please identify

we will promote redistricting in france because we should not waste means in having too many districts in france. we will not replace one at of two civil servants who retire. this is one of the conditions for the effectiveness of our civil service and to improve that. i am fully aware of the huge financial need and that we're not in title to waste a single euro. we will push the reform of local communities. we will try to decrease the amount of local and regional local elected officials. we will request an effort from all communities. the government will face a huge challenge of transforming the french economy in it to a productive economy. what is at stake is the country itself, the citizens themselves, and the taxpayers themselves. the effort should be shared. there's also the issue of the reform of social security network to stop abuses. this is something that we will reform. we will also reform the pension system. 2010 will be an important year in that regard. everything will have to be in question. the age of retirement. all possibilities will be considered. the various stakeholde

even more important for those people down the road, if democrats are not in control of the redistricting process, that could be bad news for the congressional delegation. by the end of 2010, democrats could control, if they did win this special election, all but two of the state's 29 congressional districts. that, steve, is the news from the hotline today. host: i want to have to quickly look ahead. you are going to have two senate races in new york and a governor's race. host: that's right. the other person who is up is chuck schumer, who is not only a favorite, but a heavy favorite. he does not have any serious opposition. he has an incredible amount of money on hand. the only person who seems to be talking about being a republican opponent to gillibrand is one that's representing long island in congress. the governor's race is a big stumbling block for democrats. david paterson has very low approval ratings. the democratic establishment in the state as narrowly won a primary. the question is, will david paterson run for reelection? for all the candidates running, the person at the top

why not just apply to everybody so all jurisdictions have to submit their redistricting? wouldn't that be more fair? >> the question is so all the streets have to resubmit their application. actually, most districts to not show a history of segregation. for example, my state of vermont is considered among the fairest election laws in the country. we do not have racial imbalances in vermont. we're probably the most homogeneous state in the country, but what we do is we know those areas where there have been problems. if new areas, with a problem, then it could be submitted. it is done in a very careful way, and it has worked for 1/2. most cases, even those that submited, have to submit their program, do not mind. i have people tell me it is a way of keeping us honest. i go back to the days brown vs. board and others, segregation was made illegal. i was 18, getting ready to go into my junior year in college, and i came down with my parents to d.c., and i saw for the first time signs but still said "colored " and "whites-only." my son-in-law remembers that even though it was

why not apply it to everyone so all states have to submit their redistricting? >> the question is should all districts have to resubmit their applications? because most districts do not show a history of segregation. for example, my state of vermont is considered one of the fairest among the fairest in the country. we do not have racial imbalances in vermont. we are probably the most homogeneous state in the country. what we do is we know those areas where there have been problems. and new areas come up with problems and then the decision will be made to submit a. it is done in a very careful way, and it has worked very well. most places have to submit their program here and don't mind. i have had people tell me it is a way of keeping us honest. i go back to the days of brown versus board of education and other segregation -- and others when segregation was made illegal. i remember when i was 18, i was getting ready to go to my junior year in college and i came down here with my parents to washington and i saw for the first time signs that said -- sign that said

one is the redistricting process where new lines get depraun on the maps of all the states -- drawn on the maps of all the states of the union and those maps are drawn and approved by the state legislatures and some of them it's very, very bart san when they decide how to ex-- partisan when they decide how to expand the number of democratic and republican seats. and in my state it's fortunate because it's far less partisan than any other state that i know of. but that sets the -- that determines in a large way who will be in the jorts in the state legislatures -- majorities in the state legislatures in the next election. some seats will be lost and some seats will be won as a result of the census that's taking place in 2010. not only does it make a difference in who's in the majority in the state legislatures in every state, bicameral, with the exception of nebraska which is unicam rale. but it makes sense -- unicameral. but it makes sense here, madam speaker. when those lines are changed it makes a difference on sometimes who comes to this congress. it makes a difference on whether a