i would only say richard dearlove left the intelligence world 12 years ago. way in which we conduct counterterrorism in europe is completely different from how it was in 2004. i think it is much, much more effective than it was when he was in charge of mi-6. >> so he's basically saying you're an old foggiy. actually, now it would be 15 years ago that you left, and that you don't quite get the lineme alignment as it stands right now and the risk to britain in this breakup, in this divorce. >> i think i do. i think i understand the problem very well. a certain amount has changed, particularly in terms of exchange. the more sophisticated capability we have tracks us internationally. i spent nearly 40 years doing this. i would say i have great respect for john, he is a diplomat, not essentially an intelligence officer. i spent a lot of time with people like solana talking about eu capabilities and how we could support them. we wanted them to be of a specific character, which they are now. and the meat of european security for very good reasons of security is done