avery freedman, civil rights attorney, and richard herman. incident. >> it undermines the trust we have in law enforcement. this is shocking if you think about it. on the assumption it is true, the idea that law officers were involved and not only participated in the internal affairs officer did nothing seems incredible that you would have an internal affairs officer that's maybe as tough as it gets when it comes to law enforcement doing absolutely nothing. it just truly undermines our whole sense of our trust in what law enforcement should be. >> these guys are always the ones that are supposed to be policing the police, and it is disturbing. it is unclear how much they saw, hopefully we'll know more. richard, that's a question that those indicted will be arraigned. what other details could be learned then? >> listen, in this modern age of technology, we have video of crimes being committed. and here it is all captured on video. this officer, his image is captured. he is going to have himself a major problem. he is charged with a substantial

cnn, new york. >> let's bring in our legal guys, avery freedman, professor from cleveland, and richard hermanense attorney, joining us from las vegas. good to see you as well. >> hi, fred. >> gentlemen, this is really a fascinating case, is it not? richard, you mention that you are good friends with mickey sherman, the lawyer that represented michael skakel in the trial in 2002, and while you hear the judge say it was an ineffective representation, that mickey sherman is guilty of here, and that's why they believe michael skakel deserves a new trial, you say actually the problem is ineffective judging. so richard, explain more. >> well, a couple things, fred. first of all, whether he can get out on bail pending new trial, that's the first issue, and because the government is going to appeal this judge's decision, he is not getting out. so until that determination is made, i think he is going to remain incarcerated. number two, what the judge found, and the appeal is not based on any review of the facts of the case, that's not what the appeal or decision was based upon, it is premised upon a b

richard herman in las vegas, avery freeman in cleveland.ears, you previously counselled him and the family on legal matters? >> that's right. king of the countdown worldwide, told all of us keep our feet on the ground, keep reaching for the stars, but yes, he is very ill. the issue here is children's rights versus spouse's rights. in the absence, fredricka, of neglect or abuse, generally spousal rights prevail over children's rights. probably governed by a legal document. >> if that's the case. >> in the absence -- >> sorry, there's delay. >> in the absence of neglect or abuse, it is likely in the absence of neglect and abuse, it is likely that the friends and even the children may never get to see their dad again. >> my goodness, so if this wks a legal case, or that it is a legal case, where can it go given that statement? >> fred, what can happen is the family can try to bring a petition for conservativeship or try to allege by isolating him, it is akin to elder abuse or in some cycles in parkinson's patients, they claim they should be so

avery freedman, civil rights attorney and law professor from cleveland, good to see you, and richard hermanangeles today, criminal defense attorney. good to see you. gentlemen, so much to talk about as it pertains to this case, which is shocking, disturbing, all of the above. richard, let's first talk about the fact that the couple's own children were the ones to push to have this case opened. and may testify at the trial. how damaging could that be potentially? >> look, fred, when a state brings first degree murder charges, highest charges they can bring against someone, they have to have their ducks in a row. it is very emotional when children are going to step up against a parent and make certain claims. you have to look at the objective findings and objective evidence here, and here what is clear is that this woman had high blood pressure, she had a cardiomyopathy, she was -- in 2007 they bring charges five years later, and not one medical examiner for the state of utah said her cause of death was done by whom side. that's critical, fred. i don't know how they're going to be able to pro