remember rick lazio going at hillary clinton? and it usually doesn't work, certainly not so well for the aggressor. >>> and how much longer can republicans talk about electrified border fences with mexico? and crimes committed by illegal immigrants before they squander their chance to win latino votes, which may decide this election? >>> and let me finish tonight with real leadership on national security versus the showoff variety. >>> we start with the end of the gadhafi regime. john heilemann is national affairs editor for "new york" magazine. ayman, thank you so much. people need to be reminded and clarified. why did we get involved in the whole gadhafi overthrow? >> well, in the libyan revolution began or the uprising began back in february, the gadhafi regime had seen what happened in tunisia and egypt and decided it was not going out like that. it unleashed its forces on the people there and it became very bloody. thousands had died by that point. they asked the arab league to get involved. the arab league asked for interna

joining me is analyst and former pennsylvania governor ed rendell, and former republican congressman rick lazioick lazio.com. governor, is something happening here? >> we are, though let's be clear, the growth in this quarter is good, 2.5, not good enough, but good, but we're still in the midst of a jobless recovery, which mean the jobs bill that has been outlied needs to be passed. mr. kantor is dead wrong. in pennsylvania, the original stimulus bill, we got over a billion for roads and bridges, we repaired over 700 bridges with that money. 700 bridges. now, mr. kantor, that's not chopped liver. >> no, it's not. rick, let me ask you, when you look at the fact that according to a recent poll, 08%, 80% people want to see money spent on infrastructure. then something happened sunday that was really rare. we saw big labor and big business agree. let me show you something that was said by richard trumka of afl-cio, and tom done hue of the chamber of commerce, when they came together on a sunday morning show. you're talking about having church on sunday, this was real gospel to the american people.

a lot of women watching that debate felt like rick lazio was bullying her. something else happened last night, by the way. mitt romney put his hand on rick perry. i don't know how that will play out. but that picture, is on the cover of a lot of papers. one last element though, i will add, is republicans want a fighter. so i don't necessarily think this bickering is bad as long as it eventually ends because this shows that rick perry for example, for the first time, can fight. >> yeah, you know, critics have been saying karen, and you are well aware, there wasn't enough energy on the gop side. this might be good in the end perhaps. >> yes. and rick perry was awake for the whole thing. a huge victory for him. what is interesting with mitt romney is that it shows issue he he had to deal with last time in terms of the flip-flopper or however you want to frame it, that's clearly the line of attack that perry will continue and romney will have to show that he can avoid letting perry get under his skin. >> all right. who won last night, matt? >> look, nobody won. b

hanover new hampshire, msnbc analyst alex wagner, and here in studio, former republican congressman rick lazio, who has the most to lose up there tonight? >> i think this is -- i think that the broad consensus here is that it is rick per who has the most to lose. he's had some weak debate performances thus far, and everybody is looking to see if he can sort of ramp it up. his advisers have said he's been sleeping a lot. he had an energy level issue at the last debate so that may help him, but i think fundamentally he's been going through more debate prep. he's reportedly been sparring with someone who is taking the place of mitt romney. rick perry has to have a very strong showing tonight quite simply. otherwise his candidacy is really in jeopardy. >> well, mr. lazio, let's look at why he's got to come through some tonight. if you look at the polls, his standing in september, september 15, it was perry 31, romney 24 and cain 5. you go to today's poll, it's romney 20, cain 18 and perry 15. >> right. >> he's got a problem. >> he does have a problem, and he has had a series of underwhelming debat

it reminded people of rick lazio in 2000 with a tim russert debate with hillary clinton and rick laz why, that he is not rate rate when lazio entered her space and that was such an invasion of personal space that people thought it was too much. >> i think that too much is made of -- i think too much is being made of that, andrea. at an earlier debate, rick perry laid his hands on mitt romney. mitt romney didn't take offense at that and i don't think rick perry took offense when mitt touched him on the shoulder at last night's debate. we have seen enough of the debates to know that when mitt romney comes on stage, he is not looking to take wild swings at his opponents. he comes prepared to talk about jobs, the economy and his plans to get this country moving again. what we saw last night with rick perry, was, it reminded me of an athlete whos had bad performances and he goes into the next context looking to pick a fight. people don't like that. i think you heard the audience more than once boo rick perry for personal cheap shots and negative attacks against romney and other candidates

and rick lazio approached her at the podium. most of the men, frankly, in the audience thought lazio did what he needed to do and he was tough and all that. when they checked with their dial groups at home, vote here's were watching thought it was rude, overly aggressive. and frankly, lazio's number kind of dropped out right after that. >> if i can just bring you in, perry was throwing the punches. then there was that moment when mitt romney put his hand in a very skond scending manner. say that on the basis of what many psychologists say, administration your hand on someone's shoulder. it is an act of condescension. do you think that worked? >>. no he looked rattled. he looked like he wasn't prepared to take that punches from mitt romney. it is like he expected herman cain is moving up so he will get the fire and maybe he would be able to coast through and he seemed rattled. then when he did that, it did look condescending. it looked like a locker room at a boy's prep school. he came across as condescending might be the word, h

. >> and in the senate debate -- >> rick lazio. >> it was the undoing of his campaign against hillaryesidential, what caught your eye was the president and his daughters and reality tv. >> right. apparently, the obama girls are not "keeping up with the kardashians" because president obama does not, apparently, like that. he says first lady michelle obama's interviewed by ivillage, and she aid barack really thinks some of the kardashians, the obama girls, when they watch that stuff, he doesn't like that as much. the first lady, on the other hand, said watching these shows could be a teaching tool and it's important to ask the question, what did you learn when you watched it? if they're learning the right lessons, like that we're crazy, then i'm okay with it, she says. what do you think? >> i think with a lot of reality tv, the most promotable moments are the moments where there is no civility, and so that, i always keep my kids away from it. the kardashians seem to be a little different to me in that kim in particular seems to be smart and enterprising, and maybe there's a lesson. i th