elizabeth: yeah, that is the problem, jason, what rick perry just said. then you have the president out on the campaign trail in maui, or you know, jason, thousands lost loved ones including entire families, their homes and possessions. at least 114 dead, at least 850 missing, many of them children. you know, jason, they lost everything, but biden decides to compare that with a fake story about a fire in his kitchen that the associated press says was put out in 20 minutes? talking about how he almost lost his corps corvette and his kitten, his cat? watch this. >> i don't want to compare difficulties, but we have a little sense, jill and i, of what it's like to lose a home. years ago, now 15 years ago, i was in washington doing "meet the press." it was a sunny sunday. and lightning struck at home on a little lake just outside of our home to. elizabeth: come on, jason. hawaiians are asking how do you compare losing a corvette to children burned in their homes and cars? you know, he's been trying to sound relatable. he comes across as a selfish, pathological

this was seen as the last gasp sort of moment where maybe rick perry could turn his campaign around, didn't work out for him. he ended up winning no caucuses, no primaries and fell further in the polls after that moment. there is another moment to me that jumps out as the seminal moment where a campaign that looked like it was on the rise was coming to an end, from the 2016 campaign. it happened in new hampshire. happened with marco rubio and chris christie. let's listen to that. >> you see everybody -- i want the people at home to think about it. that's what washington, d.c., does. the driver barbie shot at the beginning with incorrect and incomplete information and the memorized 25-second speech that is exactly what his advisors gave him. there it is. there it is. the memorized 25-second speech. >> that's the -- >> there it is, everybody. >> i feel like there was a trap that was set up at that moment and marco rubio walked right into it. remember what -- >> people didn't see he kept repeating the same thing. >> exactly right. he said exactly what chris christie said he was going to

former energy secretary rick perry joining us now. i'm sure agree with that, is unworkable. out, please. >> absolutely, unworkable. this is the largest fight against fossil fuel in the history of the world and the people who are going to pay the price of the citizens. take for instance if you did away with the american fossil fuel industry, what it means to countries like africa and india using american liquefied natural gas or will in the future to deliver electrons in power to communities that don't have power today so you're basically saying to those people you don't care about the future or if they die, don't care if they have a sonogram or any power to make the life and that's a black hearted way to look at the future so why don't you spend more time on small modular reactors, more money on the technology to develop small reactors which are walk away if, zero emission but it is a war against fossil fuel. that's what this is and the cost not only to the economy of america but the health of billions around the world is going to be catastrophic. stuart: i want to show the

indeed, governor rick perry made a point after his booking of posing online a competing image of that mugshot, the governor eating ice cream, to document with the well documented impression that a mugshot can make. beyond politics the media mob boss john gotti tried smiling for this mug shot, taking the same effort to spin what is supposed to be a day of reckoning as some sort of thing to smile about or reflect a casualness or that he was above it. rick perry and john edwards, the politicians i mentioned, were largely cleared of legal wrong doing. a mugshot is not a conviction. edwards against a tough federal prosecutor at the time, his name, jack smith, the same prosecutor prosecuting trump in two cases. jenna ellis seen in her mug shot also taking that approach, smiling, which we've seen in prominent examples but is rare for most people's mugshots. any a these defendants could be cleared of wrong doing or convicted. so as the trump defendants get their mug shot, they enter a pantheon of a system and a moment for you as a defendant that's always been a ig deal no matter what happens

the lone star state's former governor, rick perry, was accused of abusing his power. when those charges were dismissed, he made the trumpian move of using his mugshots to raise money. >> this is, in fact, o.j. coming down the freeway. >> reporter: and it's not all politics. almost 30 years ago that white bronco chase led to this timeless mugshot of celebrity o.j. simpson which time magazine darkened making him look more sinister. "time" apologized and o.j. -- >> not guilty of the crime of murder. >> reporter: other celebrities have wound up before police cameras, too, a defiant jane fonda, a smiling robert downey jr., a young lindsay lohan, a disheveled nick nolte and bill gates before he was a billionaire. then there are mugshohots that have truly beco iconic, notably civil rights leaders from martin luther king jr. to john lewis taken into cucustody for r standing up fo the case of rosa parks sitting down for their rights. >> so back to that mugshot merch, the trump campaign is selling $34 shirts, $25 coffee mugs and $15 beer koozies with a tagline saying never surr

we have seen people collapse in that environment, like a rick perry or jeb bush or others who take certain have to genuinely perform. how do you perform under pressure? we need to know those things, very excited, chris christie and mieksz mike pence rely on hating trump. >> brian: when mike pences i don't just disagree on january 6, you have to back ukraine. 80% of the agenda and 20%. >> tammy: why not get rid of the education and energy department, cut the cost of government. cut your own house first before you cut ours. >> brian: insolvent. >> tammy: maybe ask for some money from ushg yoo back. that is the kind of conversation, who is going to bring that up and take that stand? >> brian: real quick, you got to hope to be arcs attacked, get the spotlight on you. >> tammy: we need to see how people perform under pressure, some don't do well. there will be discussions about president trump. it was maybe a good idea he'll have to engage with more individuals, this is not 2016, this is different time, talent bench is ep doo, exciting tomorrow night. >> brian: even the pregame show will be fan

anybody that goes on tv to be honest by the grace of god, rick perry did this and i said to myself, take because will makes a lot of list, i have three-point if you go one, two and don't have three that the problem in a problem on the debate stage. watch this. >> the third agency of government i would do away with the education, commerce and let's see, the third one i can't, sorry. loops. will: he pulled a ripcord, he said i can't. one, two. pete: what happens about television you have to roll with it and i think he named the interior department. will: no one really knows. pete: all you know is that moment. a smart guy, tough spot. 2015 we can depict any number of highlights from the 2015, 2016 debate stage as donald trump rose in the polls, they started on the outside. pe.will: the higher that you pul your in the middle, the lower your on the outskirts, the edges of the debate stage. pete: he kept going and another people going out it's exchanges like this one that then candidate trump had with jeb bush. >> so far i'm doing better. >> it doesn't matter. >> you started off over here and

politicians, congressman tom delay had a mugshot, john edwards, former presidential candidate, rick perryelebrities. o.j. simpson, notably famous because "time" darkened the image to make him look more sinister and apologized for that and he got off on the murder charges. nick nolty, that mugshot spurred had him to get help for substance abuse issues. and lindsey lohan has had her mugshot taken numerous times. there are multiple people who fall into this category. >> there are a the lot of musicians with very famous mugshots. >> musicians all over the place, there's been a the lot of that going on. james brown, famously, chase with police. david bowe wit was with pun of my favorite when is they got busted for marijuana. justin bieber for i'm trying to remember. >> he had that going on. >> here were my favorites. you go to elvis presley, mick jagger and frank sinatra. l vis presley the got into a shoving match. and frank sinatra was arrested for seduction. >> you can see why. >> what are you trying to say about old blue eyes? >> i would be arrested for being charming. >> speaking of being

i remind people in 2008, we had giuliana come into thousand 12 rick perry, in 2016 joe bush or scott lot of game to be played, and especially in the state of iowa. stuart: this notion that someone who doesn't carry that legal baggage could win the whole thing. these polls don't bear that out. maybe something bigger at play here, national frustration with the system as it is. the system is going after donald trump, and they carry certain clout and they do register, the former president, i wonder if he's nominated, if he is the guy, will a lot of those republicans who support him now, about on election day, is that your fear? >> i don't know. i think it is a risk. 2,024 is the most important election of our lifetime. we say that every two years which i happen to believe this time it is really true. i think the former president presents the biggest risk of losing to the democrat and i don't believe it will be president biden, it will be michelle obama or governor newsom or someone else. neil: sorry to jump on you but who intrigues you the most? desantis getting attention, not as much, s

you spent a lot of time from rick perry former energy secretary from president trump, was he tellingpower. >> he was this is interesting i spent the weekend with them at a conference. what people don't realize he was a democrat then reagan then came over to be republican. as texas governor he said a mandate for 15% of the energy to come from renewables very early on, texas got up to 46%. as secretary of energy he saw all the innovations going on drought the country. he was very adamant that he believes nuclear power is the next wave and it's really reliable, sustainable in a way to have a reliable grid which was almost a catastrophic failure in texas. i was impressed, he was refreshing and common sense politician and i wish we could get more of that back. from a energy policy standpoint there's no way we can go to 100% electric vehicles and 100% renewables. it's not sustainable. government really needs to realize that. if they don't, if they wait too long, when the grid breaks in the populace is without power for weeks, not days or hours, that's when it'll come to home. stuart: i wis

>> well, is there anyone who doesn't remember rick perry saying oops when he failed to recall the thirdt agency he had called to dismantle and by the way, the energy department he later led in the trump administration. this is a totally self-inflicted wound and sometimes we only remember one thing from a debate and in that case it was the oops moment. in the vice presidential debate last time around it was the fly that landed on mike pence's head. so you do not want to be the victim of the viral moment from a debate. >> you'd much rather be the fly in that scenario. what are the other things that have come out is that a debate like this, particularly a multi-candidate debate, it's the most powerful jobs fair in the world. what do you mean? >> well, you wonder if some of these candidates really think they can be nominated for president this time around. maybe they do think they can be a cabinet official in a new trump administration or maybe they can get a big job in politics or maybe they can become a co-host on cnn. so there are a lot of good things that can happen to you if you make a

lone star stalt's former governor rick perry was charged with abusing his power and after the defense> coming down the free segway. >> reporter: and not all politics. almost 30 years ago that white bronco chase led to this snapshot of o.j. simpson, and darkening and making him look more sinister. and oj. >> a smiling robert downie, jr., a young lindsey lohan and bill gates before he was a millionaire. then there are mug shots that have truly become iconic. notably civil rights leaders from martin luther king, jr., to john lewis, taken into custody for standing up the case of rosa parks, sitting down for their rights. >> reporter: the modern mug shot shot began in the late 1800s. a better way to keep track of criminals. millions have been taken, but never before of a former u.s. president, let alone one that wants to be president again. >> yeah, history. tom foreman. thank you so much. >>> just ahead, flowers from supporters inside russia days after his apparent death. we are going to have their reaction. plus the investigation of a plane crash that appears to have claimed his life, ma

>> go ask marco rubio and rick perry. i mean, yeah, absolutely they matter. i mean, herman cain.s running. by november he was winning in four or five different national polls simply because of the debates. people do not, not just locally but nationally as well. they want to see who can give a punch, who can stand on the stage, be a leader, show the charisma, show the inspiration and leadership. >> gov unanimous desantis was campaigning in new hampshire today. i want to play what he said last night about the former president's attacks on him. >> when he hits me with the juvenile insults, i think that helps me. i don't think voters like that. i don't think it's effective. so, i actually don't mind it at all. i think it's just a reminder why there's so many millions of voter who is will never vote for him going forward. >> do you see indication that the former president's insults somehow help desantis in a meaningful way? >> no. i would just say this. when the former president insults you, it means he's scared of you. it means he's recognizing you as a potential threat. and i think

rick perry brian. >> peter: or was it interior. >> steve: couple nights later on the long-term show he >> brian: also had a bad back. >> ainsley: ronald reagan one. that was great. that was in 1980, i remember studying him i had to give a speech at the reagan library and studied that that is so great because he personally financed that debate. >> steve: i was actually covering the caucuses in iowa. >> ainsley: the moderator was going to clip his mike and said mr. microphone guy, clip his mic. he stood up. got so mad. sat back down and said i am paying to are this mic. the crowd went crazy. >> steve: who do you think is most apt to deliver a si zinger tonight. >> pete: you look at that clip unscripted. part-time paying baying for this microphone. mccain bush exchanges. it had already been in the news it was coming. a prepared back and forth for that. that's what is so uncertain about in 13 hours a debate like tonight. it's make or break for ron desantis. so does he go on the attack? he certainly gets attacked. the criticism of him has been personality, being fluid, being natural. >> bri

dagen: rick perry is here to try and explain why sloppy joe biden is sucking up to venezuela and iranhere. michael shellenberger join us on the latest move to blame colonial moves for the fire. >> we have more of that on top. see you then. the biggest ideas inspire new ones. 30 years ago, state street created an etf that inspired the world to invest differently. it still does. what can you do with spy? ♪ ♪ my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, mus

we have seen it with rick perry, democratic side with mike bloomberg, fred thompson on down the road.oesn't mean they are going to be successful. but, there is a thirst and desire for something else. and whether the debate creates an environment in which candidates rise up or other candidates come in, it's a pivotal moment in this campaign. >> quickly the a.p. poll. this is number 8, guys. would you like to see biden run again in '24? 24% yes. 75% no. >> it's pathetic. the majority don't want either of these guys to run. >> bret: okay. see you in milwaukee. on that note, thank you very much. ♪ ♪ >> bret: and finally tonight, a special day. >> today is a special day because it's the 80th birthday. but there are over 200 crew members here today. >> bret: special ceremony in new york to mark 80 years since the commissioning of the uss intrepid. more than 180 crew members returned to the ship at pier 86. including some who were part of the original crew in 1943. the intrepid's first mission was in the pacific during world war ii. the celebration including a special presentation for those

we've seen that with folks like rick perry in the past. so i think they need to not make a mistake, but they need to figure out their messaging when it comes to the strong front-runner here. i'll add one other point to what susan said about why that support is so strong. for donald trump, it's not just he doesn't have the values that connect to evangelicals. it's what a candidate does, not what they say or even believe. and donald trump delivered on the promise to particularly put conservatives on the court. that's why his favorables remain so strong in places like iowa. >> thanks to you and mark, i know you're going to have more poll numbers every day this week and certainly you know major coverage after the debate, but every day, more poll numbers and hopefully see mark and your colleagues reporting from iowa as well as milwaukee with the debate. after the gop debate on wednesday, make sure to join rachel maddow and joy reid at 11:00 p.m. eastern. that's here on msnbc and streaming on peacock. >>> after afghanistan, two years since the c

in 2008, if the polls were right, you would have hadgy -- guliani and then rick perry. >> neil: so someonegage could win the whole thing. these polls don't bear that out and there's something bigger at play here. national frustration with the system as it is. the system is going after donald trump, never mind the fact that some of the charges here do carry certain clout here. they do register. the former president's doing, no 1 else's. so i'm wondering if he's nominated and he is the guy, there a lot of those republicans who are saying they're going to support him now just bow out on election day? is that your fear? >> you know, i really don't know. it's a risk. i think 2024 is the most important election of our lifetime. we shea that every two years. i happen to believe this time it's really true. i think the former president presents our biggest risk of losing to the democrats. i don't believe it's going to be joe biden. it's going to be michelle obama or governor newsome or somebody else. >> neil: who of those republicans -- i'm sorry to jump on you. who intrigues you the most? desantis

i do think he probably will go the way of rick perry and have -- and will probably be saying, please'm most interested to see what desantis does. i think the fake ramaswamy, he has been preparing for this debate on what. he said he hasn't prepared for. it >> he wants to raise the voting age to 25, people these people under 25 aren't informed enough to vote. i've been on the road at trump rallies, i've talked a 60 year olds who believe that jfk junior is alive and is currently vice president. i don't think age has anything to do with how inform you are unfortunately for him with this campaign policy decision. >> it's gonna mess up, that's really gonna mess up the primary with rfk junior on the democratic side. it's really gonna be a gross match. >> a lot of republicans whose heads are gonna explode make sense of how our of cage in years on the debate stage of a democratic side. stephanie, without trump at the debate it's very likely that ron desantis is gonna be pounced on by the other candidates. and some point he was the front runner from post trump candidates and now he seems to be

that is where you also can see rick perry, of all people, texting with meadows on the floor, the same thing, and on the same day, november 5th, you see a right how speech writer, who came to the committee's attention, because he worked under stephen, was part of as being the president to stop the steel speech and his speech on the rally on january 6th, he has that idea, too, and he flushes them out in a series of his own emails to an employee of the office of presidential personnel. it's a coincidence that all of these people are coming up with this independent state legislature doctrine light theory as early as november 4th and fifth? probably not. you know, we don't have the complete roster of who was on the friends of stone tax list, but my guess is that friends of stone and friends of friends of stone start circulating at percolating this theory around that time and it moves outward from there. >> you know, i am a college professor at morgan state, and if i saw a whole bunch of kids turning in a very similar people at the same time, i might start tracing back emails and say, who d

he had company in rick perry, texting mark meadows, that day or the day before, suggesting the same. he had company in cleta mitchell who was sending text messages to mark meadows that same day, urging him to look into the possibility that state legislatures might appoint their own electors, and who suggested it to her, none other than former clinton guru dick morris. there are people just like roger stone having the same idea at the same time, whether they're linked remains to be seen, however, we should all understand that jack smith has a plethora of evidence at his disposal that we have never seen. the same was also true for the january 6th committee. so some of the examples i just cited to you, chris, are from my embarrassing deep dive into the evidence that is still available from that committee's investigation. jack smith arguably has more, and whether or not those people were talking to each other or other people connected to each other remains to be seen. i think it will with one of the most interesting things we'll see. >> you say embarrassing, i say remarkable deep dive. i

the lone star states former governor, rick perry, was accused of abusing his power.ges were dismissed, he made the trumpian move of using his mug shots to raise money. >> this is in fact o.j. coming down the freeway. >> reporter: and it's not all politics. almost 30 years ago, that white bronco chase led to this timeless mug shot of celebrity o.j. simpson, which "time" magazine darkened, making him look more sinister. "time" apologized and o.j. -- >> not guilty of the crime of murder. >> reporter: other celeb rities a defiant jane fonda, a smiling robert downy junior, a young lindsay low hahn, and bill gates before he was a billionaire. then there are mug shots that have truly become iconic. notably civil rights leaders from martin luther king jr. to john lewis taken into custody for standing up for, in the case of rosa parks, sitting down for their rights. the modern mug shot began in the late 1800s, the echks of a french detective who wanted a better way of keeping track of suspects and criminals. since then millions have been taken, but never before of a former u.

i'm thinking back to 2012 when governor rick perry of texas had that infamous oops moment he forgot the names of the government agencies he wanted to eliminate or newt gingrich also in 2012 when he shot to the top and carried south carolina in the primary because he was such a formidable antagonist and edged out mitt romney. so, these, you know, these candidates who are not in first place really do see some benefit here if they can, you know, find an opening. and i think that's what worries the trump campaign and his advisers the most, is who rises to the top here in a way that could be threatening. >> yeah. i mean, jeremy, and this is an opportunity for this to be a post trump political world stage tonight. but how -- it just seems as though the former president is still controlling the oxygen, the talks and the discussions, even when he's not there. >> mm-hmm. and from our reporting in the "times," we have spelled out that fox plans to make trump center stage in this debate, regardless of whether or not he's physically there. they are going to use video of him, he's going to be the su

>> go ask marco rubio and rick perry, i mean yeah, they matter.in's name at this point. by november he was winning in four or five national polls simply because the debates. so people do watch, not just locally, but nationally as well. and they want to see who can give a punch, who can stand on that pit stage not just to be one of many, but to truly be a leader, to show the charisma, the inspiration that leadership. that is exactly what folks are gonna be looking for. >> governor desantis was campaigning in new hampshire today. i want to point out what he said to -- about the former president's attacks on him. >> when he hits me with these juvenile insults, i think it helps me. i don't think voters like that. i don't think it is effective, and so actually don't mind it at all. i think it is just a reminder why there are so many millions of voters will never vote for him going forward. >> do you think there is indication that the former presidents insults somehow help desantis in a meaningful way? >> i would just say this. when the former president

tom delay, rick perry, john edwards for using campaign funds to try to hide an illicit affair out thereore. they don't all mean the same thing. >> what's the history of the mugshot, tom? >> i think the history of the mugshot is very interesting. it goes fwook 1888. french. alphonse bertans who was a police officer. they had been taking photographs of people who they arrested, but they were taken from all kinds of ways. he thought, we should have a standardized way of doing it. this is him. the first mugshot was of him and he was innocent. so we will see what happens as the trump mugshot plays out. he would like it to be triumph ept in the end. this is the first time we know it's been tied to the presidency and millions of times they have been tied to the penitentiary. >> tom foreman, thank you. >>> more trump's 8 co-defendants turn themselves in overnight. still two more to turn themselves in by noon eastern the deadline. >>> also this ahead. this is the moment that he saw his daughter after spending eight years in prison. a new unit fought to get his murder conviction vacated after new

rick perry collapsed. i've seen is tell mates. million watchinging maybe a few more. they'll be paying attention to it and they're in the beginning of the decision-making process. tonight there's a much more. in the end republicans to not want joe biden p. republicans do want a replacement. but electability is less important. >> you mean democrats. >> yes. >> you said republicans. michelle is waiting in the wings, frank. that's what i'm hearing. that's going to happen. he can't back out now. >> here comes the issue. joe biden will not be running as an 80-year-old. he's 86 years oil. you're not voting for him today. you're voting for him for after the election? democrats couldn't pass over the vice president, could they? that would be very difficult for those who would say it would be tough to pass over to michelle obama. >> ask the governor of california. he's launching for campaign not for pretty now but president four years from now. ask someone like cory booker or the governor of michigan, gretchen whitmer. this are a lot of pe

rick hassan, the most important case in our nation's history. we catherine is professor of law in political science. you can read that piece on the importance of the trial in slate. com. danya perry is a former deputy attorney general, yesterday's office southern district of new york, and they both join me now. rick, that headline really grabbed me after day, and i really like the piece. why do you think this is the most important trial in the nation's history? >> unlike the other claims against trump so classified documents in the hush money, they don't go to our democracy itself. and might be terrible to lead a national secret, but it's not the same thing as trying to subvert an election. and really, as i argue in the piece, trump has not been held accountable anywhere. he was not convicted in the senate. there's been no civil civil liability. this is the only chance to hold him liable for trying to essentially end american democracy. if he can get away with this without even trying to put him on trial, any future candidate who might look for extra legal means to try to turn himself from election loser to an election winner. >> i said this before, but the u.s. is not the only c

i've been on a lot of debate stages you want, first, not to melt down, don't have a rick perry momente you're talked about at the end, which he is and you want to make sure you get some of the most time, which he did so for an unknown candidate to capture in those -- i think he did what he should have done he should be happy he got attacked a lot. he should be happy. >> what about the guy not on the stage who, by the way, for the first hour was almost unnamed. no name checking we were talking about how on our phones or ipads or other screens, some of us were trying to watch a little bit of the x interview, which started with, you know, whether jeffrey epstein had been killed or not >> what was the answer >> he did not take the bait. he didn't -- >> we still don't know >> he said he probably killed himself. >> it was a bill barr question about whether bill barr was actually doing the work that should have been done to investigate, that is sort of the other piece of it. >> off the top >> right at the top. >> the first question is why are not -- the second question, do you think jeffrey

rick hasen, danya perry, thanks so much for your time. coming up, his investigation laid the foundation for upcoming court battle. congressman jamie raskin and joins me to talk about what this means for the. country and but how do you coordinate three trials and county around a presidential campaign. we're gonna go down that path. nna go down that path. meet the team... behind the team. the coach. the manager. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq i

trump indicted and trump, has been indicted and charged a criminal charge for calling congressman rick perrycted officials. that's exactly what a chief of staff does . and he's been staff does. and he's been indicted for that for a criminal offence. this is intended to run up legal fees to put pressure on these folks to break them, frankly, financially and that is the punishment they're seeking because i don't think they can get actual convictions in these cases. mark meadows, by the way , his case to , is trying to move his case to federal court and out of the hands of the atlanta d.a. hands of the local atlanta d.a. who elected official who is an elected official playing her elected base . playing to her elected base. he's trying federal court. i he's trying to federal court. i think a of these cases will think a lot of these cases will end the way. end up in the same way. >> steve you and we are >> steve yeah, you and we are going know other going to get to know each other awfully well over the next year, aren't because we're going aren't we? because we're going to about every aren't we?

a more ambivalent view of heroism if you look at his treatment of all rick the war 1812 and the naval conflicts. it's not that perry was some great leader or was able to give speeches or was able to motivate his soldiers that he had more cannons. and teddy roosevelt did the work to prove this. he did all the research to look not just at the cannons, but on american ships. they could point more cannons in the same direction to create a better broadside and things like that. so it was a very logistical book that talked about and the kind of boring stuff it wasn't a book about heroes. by the time teddy roosevelt, close to being a hero himself and thinking about how could the president be heroes? his books were quite bad because he all he wanted to talk about was how great people had changed history and not many cannons arrived were. but who was giving the speeches on on the ships? right. on the ships themselves. so same thing is true of wilson's first book, which quite good, but again has a very pragmatic view and sort doesn't emphasize the individual, even in these presidents in the writing. the closer they get to po