now malcolm rifkin has made it quite clear that has come to an end with the euro. you require a european government. and if the euro doesn't work, i quite frankly wouldn't like to be around as we find that out. a mod el that's appropriate for us will be different from switzerland and norway. but it will be a different model. >> where do you see the difference lying between -- you talked to nato, why is it okay to be part of nato but not have cooperation of the european union where the united kingdom continues to have a veto. >> define some ground rules here. incorporate very as low asly the united kingdom over defense. there are bilateral arrangements and not european union arrangements. so nato is a voluntary alliance where countries have agreed to aspire to a level of spending. calls on you to take the appropriate actions to take action. and interestingly, article five was only other once invoked by nato and that was in the wake of 9/11 in the united states. the one thing which we had not anticipated. but it's inyesterdayably important in terms of having secured