and that's from robert kagan, he was a very conservative thinker, somebody with whom i agree on basically nothing. but who has put a point on this moment. he published this in "the washington post" last night on the eve of the election results being released and the arizona election results result released today were hill air base found by their methodology that biden won by more than in arizona than we previously knew but they laid out why they thought the election seemed suspect, the result from former president trump was to call on the basis of this a audit for the arizona election results to be decertified for himself to be pro claimed the winner in arizona. even after this audit that pro claimed he lost worse than we knew he did before. we are at a moment that is hilarious. and infuriating. but it's corrosive in a way we need to talk about too. we're speaking tonight this hour live with the arizona secretary of state with the actual state official in arizona in charge of administering elections in that state. her reaction to what happened with this republican audit of the election re

media who we're saying this and are told, you're being hysterical, you're being alarmist, then robert kagant" and says, democracy is at stake, thank you for catching up with the rest of us. >> thank you, we'll see you throughout the week, my friend. >>> welcome to "ayman." infrastructure, the debt, the debt ceiling, and the government shutdown. man, it is a big week on capitol hill. the big question tonight is can the democrats pull this off. we'll break down what to watch out for with our all star sunday night panel. >>> then with politics and decisive culture in this country, we'll take a look at how it's changed. >>> plus a report from yahoo! news on an alleged cia plot to kidnap wikileaks founder julian assange. we'll speak to one of the journalists behind this explosive new reporting. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. >>> all right.

in fact, that's the thesis of this robert kagan piece today in "the washington post" where he writes, quote, the united states is heading into its greatest political and constitutional crisis since the civil war with a reasonable chance over the next three or four years of incidents of mass violence. now, a lot of things here. one, i sure hope he's wrong. two, i happen to think kay kagan has been wrong about a lot of things in the past. but he is correct when he says this is happening right in front of us. and this piece sounds alarmist, but you know what? it reminded me a lot of an article published one year ago. that article was titled request the the election that could break america," and they've and it sounded alarmist at the time, but it was shockingly prescient in its predictions. it lays out a scenario in which battleground states of republican legislatures sends competing on january 6th. pence as president of the senate would hold in his hands two conflicting electoral certificates. the trump team would take the position that the constitutional language leaves those questions

very conservative intellectual robert caden -- somebody with whom i disagree on everything -- robert kagan wrote a piece for the washington post that is now the most widely read and shared thing on the washington post web page. he's writing this as a conservative. but it's title, our constitutional crisis is already here. and i want to redo the lead of this, because as hilarious as this was and as much as two was fun about this failure in arizona, this own goal, this just embarrassment, this failure -- this is also a very dark day. and this is a dark thing we're going through. i'll just redo what kagan said today. he said quote, the " united states is heading into its greatest political and constitutional crisis since the civil war. with a reasonable chance over the next 3 to 4 years of incidents of mass violence, a breakdown of federal authority and the division of the country into warring red and blue enclaves. the warning signs may be obscured by the destructions of politics, the pandemic, the economy the global crises, and by wishful thinking and now. but about these things there shoul

a lot of talk about robert kagan's sweeping piece on our constitutional crisis is already here. well, the constitutional crisis because people know the truth and they choose to follow donald trump instead. it's a personality cult as kagan points out, the likes of which our founding fathers never anticipated. it's fuelled by the cult members who can hear the news coming out of arizona that donald trump lost again. they can hear the news from their doctors about the safety of covid shots. they can hear the truth about covid and other issues, about january the 6th. they know the truth, they choose the lies. donald trump is the one who of course is fanning those lies and hopes to benefit from them again. >> first of all, joe, with results of the other recount for president trump setting a record losing in arizona. congratulations to him. you are right. >> i guess you can say jonathan lemire that he's sort of the boss in red sox. this is the third big recount he lost there. >> yeah, i feel like we have a lot of red sox talk to. all these lies are still dangerous ones. ones that a lot

she then they're constantly pushing that near con, that narrative as well as her husband who was robert kagan and he is the nia collins near town. so, and their whole idea is to push nato to the break of the, or to the, to the border of the federation. and if they can, they're going to do wherever, wherever they can. but these countries are going to have to reevaluate and reassess u. s. commitment on anything at this point, and you could put money into the, into the ukraine it's, it's just, it's just means that russia is going to put in counter systems that are going to be just as effective, if not more so. and there's just so much money to going to be spent in analysis and assessment needs to be made on, on just how important we need to continue doing all this was happening. megan, what the actual, dangerous, and how much just because we have our equipment over there in the region. if that means the united states actually has it, that's the same as saying, we're going to fight with you. if it comes to point that you have to use the equipment in real quick, i've got to let you go on to some.

so is historian and "washington post" contributing columnist, robert kagan's, take. into its greatest political and constitutional crisis since the civil war with the reasonable chance over the next three to four years of incidents of mass violence, the breakdown of federal authority, and division of the country into warring red and blue enclaves. this is not some wild-eyed radical, by the way. nor is former cia director michael hayden, who warned only a thin veneer of civilization protects any democracy. even our own. nor are reporters bob woodward and robert costa being outlandish with the final line

he's proven he's exactly right and robert kagan is exactly right.trump. donald trump's a lunatic. it's about the embracing of a lunatic by the republican party. this is the history of the republican party that's being written here. it's a seminal moment in the country and the party is taking autocratic stance and it's become an autocratic movement in the country. for some of us who worked in the party for like 30 years, it's mind boggling to say that but there's no other way to look at it. the good republican is the republican that speaks out and opposes his own party or her own party now. right now the official position of the republican party is that donald trump won the election, joe biden is an illegal president so we live in an occupied country. last time that happened was 1860. didn't work out so well. that's where we are. >> in your book "it was all a lie," you sort of throw yourself on your own sword and mia culpa for your role in the party. you talk about some people who were going along with what was happening because your book came out du

this is unprecedented in our history and that's why i believe robert kagan wrote the persuasive warning in "the washington post" just recently. >> not just the terror of primarying people. actual death threats of people like congressman gonzalez and liz cheney and others are getting. kasie, as was mentioned, liz cheney is one of only two republicans on this january 6th committee. on "60 minutes" she called the silence in her party a toxin. take a listen. >> when we allow that to continue to go on in the face of rulings of the courts, in the face of recounts, in the face of everything that's gone on to demonstrate that there was not fraud, that would have changed the outcome, then we all -- if we do that, we are contributing to the undermining of our system. >> it's the american experiment, right? this isn't guaranteed to work for in perpetuity. why are so many republicans cowardly about this? >> they're afraid and they've been afraid the entire time. in the beginning they said, it will pass. it will pass. you know as well as i do and nia, you've heard this as well. in the very beginning

>>> a warning tonight from senior brookings institution fellow and “washington post” columnist robert kaganst political and constitutional crisis since the civil war. with a reasonable chance over the next three to four years of incidents of mass violence. a breakdown of federal authority and the division of the country into warring red and blue enclaves. now kagan says distraction, denial and wishful thinking are all it takes to drown out the alarm bells. until it's too late. the alarm bells got louder this week with the release of a six-part wild legal fantasy by one of former president trump's advisers, john eastman. >> that memo, again, is a blueprint to overthrow an eek. that's what it is. a blueprint to blood pressure to the overthrow the results fortunate election handed to the vice-president of the united states in the oval office. >> now nearly a year after the election, the big lie is deeply rooted in the republican party as identity. and a recent cnn srss poll, 6 in 10 gop voters said supporting trump and believing he won in 2020 are a somewhat important part of what being a repu

i mean, i read robert kagan's chilling piece about the rise of trump in 2024. anyone who dismisses that is foolish. and we have to govern. we have to deliver. the consequences of us failing are very severe, not just for our party, not just for this president, but for democracy itself. and a number of members of the caucus made that point, that more than anything, we have to get this done because democracy itself is at stake. i believe that, progressives believe that. moderates believe that. and that's why ultimately i think we're going to rally around joe biden. he's the president, we need to fall in line, get behind him. and he can come to an agreement between the factions. we're saying we're willing to negotiate. i guess i don't know what more progressives can do but say we want what the president wants and get his agenda through and we're willing to be reasonable. >> what if the president says vote yes on thursday on the infrastructure bill, ro, let's get that done, and take on faith that i will get the reconciliation bill in the best way that i can, would y

that's the title of a powerful op-ed published in "the washington post" by robert kagan., he points out that the founders did not foresee the trump phenomenon, they anticipated the threat of a demagogue, but not of a national cult of personality, nor did they foresee members of congress would refuse to check the power of the president from their own party. that's, of course, what happened over and over again. especially when republican leaders decided to oppose impeaching ex-president trump after the attack on our capitol, which ultimately could have disqualified him from future office. instead, they helped the big lie metastasize inside the gop, fueled subversion efforts. but while the founders didn't foresee this challenge to our democracy, the civil war generation did. and it is written in the constitution. the 14th amendment, section 3, which reads in part, no person shall be a senator or representative in congress or hold any office, civil or military, who having previously taken an oath to support the constitution of the united states shall have engaged in insurrect

. >> that brings me to this robert kagan column in the "washington post."ng what happens in afghanistan, seeing this giant spending package. the thing that can unite me witç the biggest maga person in the world is the build back better progressive agenda. i think it's unkugt to say you would be okay having anything to do with president trump, there are people who will vote for anything except what's happening right now. i think of president trump as godzilla under the water and the' quell could come. there are people that will put up a very good fight against him. he's not the king maker he once was as■ç we've seen in primarie across the country. >> the fascinating part about what you just said, it's the feature of the argument that kagan is making. there's a desire to own the libs, to define oneself over and against those folk that you do not want to govern. so you're willing to make a certain kind of choice, a kind of faustian bargain that unleashed this person into our body politic. what's fascinating, i think it's a bit■ç alarmist. i disagree with the w

. >> that brings me to this robert kagan column in the "washington post" that everybody has been talkingbout. the republican party is a zombie party, going through the motions of governing in pursuit of traditional republican goals. the party's main, if not sole purpose today, though, is to enable trump's efforts to ensure his return to power. >> nothing galvanizes right now than seeing what happens in afghanistan, seeing this giant spending package. the thing that can unite me with the biggest maga person in the world is the build back better progressive agenda. so i do think while it's uncouth and impolite to say in society you would be okay havinging in do with president trump, there are people who will vote for anything except what's happening right now. i think of president trump as godzilla under the water and the sequel could come. there are people that will put up a very good fight against him. he's not the king maker he once was as we've seen in primaries across the country. >> the fascinating part about what you just said, it's the feature of the argument that kagan is making.

so is historian and "washington post" contributing columnist, robert kagan's take. he writes today the united states is heading into its greatest political and constitutional crisis since the civil war with the reasonable chance over the next three to four years of scents of mass violence, breakdown of federal authority, and division of the country into warring red and blue enclaves. this is not some wild radical, by the way. nor is former cia director michael hayden, who warned only a thin veneer of civilization protects any democracy. nor reporters bob woodward and robert costa being outlandish with the final line of their b book, peril they write remains. so tonight, we are focusing on that peril from what continues to be a steady assault on the democratic process and democracy, itself. today, a sign the current president considers the threat serious enough to set aside decades of tradition. in response to a question about invoking executive privilege to shield trump-era records from the house select committee on the insurrection, the white house press secretary

i want to recommend an op-ed in the washington post by robert kagan, which really says the crisis is here. we're in a position right,000 wh now where we need to defend our democracy. >> we're not a party -- the party has succumbed to the big lie. >> one political party has. that political party is not the country. here is the important thing to remember. we are not actually a 50/50 nation as you know. if 70% of republicans believe the election was illegitimate, which was false, that is still only around a quarter of americans. that's far too many. the republican party has succumbed to lies. that does not mean that half of america believes this bs. >> it doesn't. but to your point, in that piece, which jim and i were talking about -- >> whatever your name is. >> that dude sitting next to me. >> -- it does set that up. it makes the case that it is time for people to step up. if there is that larger majority, right, it doesn't have to be just lawmakers, but it has to be the average american citizen who says this is not okay, i'm recognizing it is not okay, and i want to do something abo

>> robert kagan's excellent piece in "the washington post" that everyone is talking about, how americantors contributing to it. and i agree and likely you agree. but it's not like we haven't been saying all of that on our shows for a while now. why does it take, ayman, an establishment white guy in "the washington post" saying this for everyone else to finally pay attention, why is it those of white house are people of color weren't taken seriously when we sounded the alarm? >> listen, you kind of answered your own question, what was the keyword you just said? "establishment." i don't know if you and i have this big platform, you certainly have a huge platform on social media. i'm not sure you're part of the d.c. establishment or as our former president used to call it, the swamp. you know, to be honest with you, i was actually looking back at my twitter feed and looking back prior to the election, saying that in the i think on january six we were both saying look if this was happening anywhere else in the world, we would be calling this an attempted coup, an attempt to overthrow the go

so is historian and "washington post" contributing columnist, robert kagan's take.l and constitutional crisis since the civil war with the reasonable chance over the next three to four years of scents of mass violence, breakdown of federal authority, and division of the country into warring red and blue enclaves. this is not some wild radical, by the way. nor is former cia director michael hayden, who warned only a thin veneer of civilization protects any democracy. nor reporters bob woodward

and pull up an opinion piece from "the washington post'" robert kagan. he writes quote, in a little more than a year, it may become impossible to pass legislation to protect the electoral process in 2024. now, it is impossible only because anti-trump republicans and even some democrats refuse to tinker with the filibuster. it is impossible because despite all that has happened, some people still wish to be good republicans even as they oppose trump. these decisions will not wear well as the nation tumbles into full-blown crisis. i want to talk about two things here, vicki. one is the importance of voting rights in this moment. and making sure that there is federal legislation that is passed which is -- certainly, we cannot take our eye off of that. but also, this question that we all circle back to and i have asked strategists, i've asked former electeds but for you as a political scientist, i'm worried -- i wondering is there going to be a consequence at some point, right? when does the consequence come for republicans as a party for not just going alon

that evolution or devolution, i should say, of the republican party is why robert kagan writes in the post," we need to stop worrying about an upcoming constitutional crisis. why? because it's already here. kagan lays out in great detail the threat the cult of personality around trump creates for this country right now. how trump supporters believe not the party, not the policy, but the man himself is the answer to all their problems and how in washington, party loyalty now comes before all else. about trump's party, kagan writes this. "the republican party today is a zombie party. its leaders go through the motions of governing in pursuit of traditional republican goals, wrestling over infrastructure spending and foreign policy, even as real power in the party has leeched away to trump. let's take the news just today." republicans so full of lies and desperation to appease the twice-impeached ex-president, guess what? it not only confirmed that president joe biden won the election there. it found that he did so by an even slightly larger margin. today there's also the news that the s

. >> it senator, robert kagan wrote a piece in "the washington post" this past weekend that got a lotthat is already upon us. and whether everybody reading that, every democrat reading that, every independent-minded person reading that agreed with every one of his conclusions or not, the one thing that most agreed on is the fact state legislatures passing bills that would rip the power of certifying elections from local officials, from secretary of states, from governors, and that would allow republican state legislators to completely decertify votes they didn't like, seems to be the greatest constitutional challenge facing us moving into 2024. even some of the onus barriers they're setting up because they count the votes and decide to count the ones they like and throw up the ones they don't like. does the senate understand, do all democratic senators understand, do some republican senators understand just how dangerous this is, and that some action needs to be taken before 2022? >> i think they do. let me tell you, joe, that was a stunning article when i read it and showed it to my

>> just roberts getting people together the i was not astonish ed. i was surprised particularly justice kagan is not hostile to free exercise. and i don't really think justice sotomayor is either. there have been a number of unanimous decisions last 20 years protecting free exercise. the muslim beard in prison. and a group in new mexico using a drug in their service was unanimous. it is not that the linebacker rails are opposed to free exercise. they have other values they care about more. to some extent the republicans do, too it is just a different list. so the liberals all dissented in the could not essential -- contraception cases but the case about the gay rights group in a st. patrick's day parade was unanimous. but the, in the gay rights cased i expected to get dissent from kagan, sotomayor and brier and we didn't. i think principally because roberts wrote it so narrowly that tease facts will never araise again and philadelphia can obviously fix it on remand. they can draft something exemption free and tee up whether to overrule smith. but there are some much broader things in the opin

>> just roberts getting people together the i was not astonish ed. i was surprised particularly justice kagan is not hostile to free exercise. and i don't really think justice sotomayor is either. there have been a number of unanimous decisions last 20 years protecting free exercise. the muslim beard in prison. and a group in new mexico using a drug in their service was unanimous. it is not that the linebacker rails are opposed to free exercise. they have other values they care about more. to some extent the republicans do, too it is just a different list. so the liberals all dissented in the could not essential -- contraception cases but the case about the gay rights group in a st. patrick's day parade was unanimous. but the, in the gay rights cased i expected to get dissent from kagan, sotomayor and brier and we didn't. i think principally because roberts wrote it so narrowly that tease facts will never araise again and philadelphia can obviously fix it on remand. they can draft something exemption free and tee up whether to overrule smith. but there are some much broader things in the opin

the fact that justice roberts said that this decision was unprecedented, and he sided with elena kagan and sotomayor, demonstrates that this is not only unusual, but they have politicized the supreme court in the era of a woman's right to choose. >> and justice breyer's dissent, he referred to running the financial and other risks that come from waiting for a private person to sue them under the texas law. and the texas law, as i said, give them four years. and so for 48 months, after every abortion, that might be performed, if any are performed under this law, everyone involved would be waiting for 48 months if they will get sued to find out. yes and it has huge societal cultural implications. it turns a community into something like a surveillance state. and it's not clear yet what kind of evidence you have to show or bring in. but we know that if you are going to get your $10, 000, you must prove that this was an illegal abortion. so you have to have records, calendars, dates, you have to have testimony. all this is being assembled. and it is a very -- it is very un-community like.

kagan joined all of them. but justice sotomayor and chief justis john roberts did not join each other. there were four dissenting justices but they were not united in their dissent. they clearly had different views on what was going on, even as they dissent, you know, agreed that the -- that the justices were not going in the right direction. >> there was a lot of back and forth, especially during the most recent appointments to the supreme court under former president trump about what they believed whether it came to roe v. wade. i want to play some sound where the justices stand on this. >> one of the important things to keep in mind about roe v. wade is that it has been reaffirmed many times over the past 45 years. i understand the importance of the issue. >> roe v. wade decided in 1973. the president of the united states supreme court, it has been reaffirmed. the reliance interest considerations are important there. >> i can't express views on cases or precommit to approaching a case any particular way. >> there was a lot of gray there. right? but now we know where they stand when

john roberts wrote, quote the statutory scheme, good word before the court is not only unusual but unprecedented. that's true. usually states don't have private citizens enforce the laws. justice kagan out this is emblematic shadow docket decision making which everyday becomes more unreason, inconsistent and impossible to defend. but it was justice sotomayor blasted her colleagues. the act is a breathtaking act of defiance, correct, of the constitution of this court's precedence and of the rights of women seeking abortions throughout texas. in effect, the texas legislature has deputized the state's citizens as bounty hunters offering them cash prizes for civilly prosecuting their neighbor's medical procedures. the court should not be so content to ignore its constitutional obligations to protect not only the rights of women but also the sanctity of its precedents and the rule of law. yes justice sotomayor. thank you. she is 1,000% right. you can't have offer this as a precedent for any state that wants to curtail constitutional rights through private enforcement. right? think about this. oh, here is the new cheat code. just structure a law this way and you can deny any constitution