. >> host: well, robert o'hara described you as a good guy hacker, a white hat hacker. what does that mean, and what's the motive of some of the black hat hackers? >> guest: okay. so the white hat, the good guy hackers like was explained, so, um, we're the guys who, you know, we develop skills to do the same thing that bad guys can do. so we can break into computers, but i instead of -- instead of stealing information and causing problems, we, you know, tell everyone what we did, try to work with vendors to make their products more secure, you know, give talks about security and how to make it better. and so we're -- while we can break in and do harm, we don't. we just, we show how you can break in to improve security. on the other hand, there's the actual bad guys, and they have various ranges and motives from just, you know, teenagers goofing off and trying to impress their friends to, you know, actual organized crime trying to steal money and credit card information to, you know, governments trying to, you know, commit espionage and, you know, actual cyber warfare. s