it's a real problem. >> srennivasan: roberta johnson you speak to some of these parents sometimes. there hidden costs that they are not calculating in? >> we try to let our families know most of the costs. but certainly we cannot control what their students are going to be spending on personal expenditures. so as claudio mentioned tuition fees, room and board are costs it that we include in what is called the total cost of attendance. we also try to estimate what books are going to cost for the student. but that will vary depending upon the kuric lar area in which the student is enrolled. most colleges and universities will also have a suggested personal category for students. and we try to keep that quite reasonable. my institution we actually surveyed students and we really call late-- recalibrated a couple of years ago to lower that to approximately $2500 for a nine month period of enrollment. certainly we do have students that spend more than $2500 over that period of time. but many times we will find students that do live very frugally and are able to survive on far less. >> s

. >> or next witness is roberta johnson. iowa state university, a land grant judiciary.with a two decade history, she has significant firsthand experience in the administration of loans to both the federal family education loan program and the federal drug loan program. in 2013 she was appointed vice chair of the advisory committee on student financial assist in, which provides counsel for college access for students of lower to middle income families. she has a bachelor's degree in education and a master's degree in counselor education. >> thank you, mr. chairman. we welcome maryann malone. director of financial aid in cleveland, tennessee. the only thing that would've been better is if he would've brought the lead singers with you. i hope that you will give them our best wishes. she is membership chairman of the southern association of student financial aid administrators. she has been assistant director for financial aid at tennessee wesleyan and she's a first-generation college student and a recipient of title iv, so she has a broad view of the subject we are talking