and we also bring robin niblett from chatham house.cago on the map that we just brought up. this map is simple, this is the adjacencies to mr. putin's moscow. did nato and the united states fail in pushing nato to far east? john: i do not take that view. nato i think was pulled rather than -- i think nato was pulled rather than nato pushed. george w. bush wanted to push right towards the end of his second term for membership or ukraine. that was probably a push to far, but all of the preceding stuff, poland, hungary come czech republic -- hungary come czech republic -- hungary, czech republic. i would say based on where we are today, thank goodness they joined. francine: does nato still make sense? or does it need to change? john: it is a very fair question -- robin: it is a very fair question. i think nato makes an enormous amount of sense. the u.s. is not replete with real allies across the world. are countries in europe closely linked to the united states, whether it be with this administration or thinking more the long-term. the ir