looming over this was peter rodino. a lot of these discussions would have not taken place, i don't believe, had manny still been the head of the judiciary committee because of his historic stature. this is an unknown entity, peter rodino, and at the time, not particularly well thought of. i mean, people liked peter rodino, but he was a machine politician out of newark, new jersey, who was sort of, sort of followed party line, and was very quiet. was not a forceful figure, and so you had -- you had a sort of a legal issue on, i mean, within the house. how do you deal with this issue? and then there was this issue of the actual human beings who would, and there was -- this was an intensely discussed issue. and, again, i'm very nevous at this. being the chief of staff at the time, and this is all unfolding for the first time in front of me, and i'm trying to read and figure out, obviously very loyal to congressman rodino, but i don't know. and would come back -- but interesting, he put up a very, very strong argument for g

peter rodino knew a lot of these people. they spent a lot of time together. they went to the gym daily. the congressman played handball, i think, in the gym, but they ate lunch together. you know, they went to the members' dining room. and there was -- there was just a lot, if not socializing, not in terms of going out to dinner and that, but there was a lot of -- people knew each other. and when you know somebody, there's a lot of respect for the other person. so i think the personalities really helped, and as you look back in history now, so many of these members on both sides of the aisles came up, it sort of makes me proud about the house. these are just sort of unknown people, and they rose to the occasion. champion is, it's chilling. in fact, when you think back historically how these sort of average members, who, you know, most citizens never heard of stepped up to, and took this as an extraordinary duty. as a public servant, and that it rose above -- yes, it was partisan, and yes it had -- but felt very strongly that if you're going to conduct this in

i had peter rodino. i had another wonderful mentor named john gardner who was the founder of common cause, and i met him through this process and he was just a wise human being. and when this process ended i said what do i do with my life? you know, i said, you know, do i stay in -- and he's the one who says go reinvent yourself. he's constantly reinvent yourself. just this wonderful man and i decided i wanted to do something that was completely not -- this was it. i said, i love -- i mean, great respect for government, great respect. i just don't want to do it again. it was such a traumatic undertaking. and i said, so, i spent a year, john again john gardner was very wise, and he guided me through this year and i talked to all kinds of people. i went to ibm. up in new york. they all wore black and shoes and -- i fit in today, actually. but you know, and you try to interview with people and they'd say, what have you done? you know? go to a business what have you done? wow, i just did something. but it di

i'm sure in these interviews you'll hear about rodino. he just died a few years ago. he lived well into his 90s. but he had the right temperament. even though he had been attacked as a party hack and things like that, he really performed at a very high level. we wonder, no one can tell for sure how seller would have performed but seller was a very partisan person. you know, come from the brooklyn organization. he was an able guy in many ways. i don't want to deprecate seller but it would have been a different impeachment proceeding looking back and most people also think. so that in a funny way, although i ultimately was involved in the impeachment proceedings, what i did two years before, elizabeth holtzman did two years before probably had as great impact on the proceeding as anything we did in 1974. holtzman turned out as a congresswoman to be on the house judiciary committee and she was part of the impeachment proceedings and an important part of the impeachment proceedings. but i think her victory two years before and my sustaining of that victory as a lawyer had

first and foremost, rodino is italian. so he's very measured. but there were times when he would get emotional in his measured way. there was no doubt that john and staff understood what had to be done, and i think that that was the relationship. but again by then, there was such incredible trust between great differences of opinion. why wouldn't there be? i mean again these were monumental decisions. these were un -- i remember the night, moving off your subject for a minute, i remember the night we had to send a letter to the president, the debate went deep into the night. do you actually send a letter to the president of the united states? this is kind of -- every day we had to make these kind of decisions. these were not -- we had no guidance. so all of these things, every issue, every legal issue, every political issue, had to be discussed, thought through, talked out, and you're dealing with a intellectually powerful staff on both sides of the aisle. just powerful, intellectually powerful people in terms of their intellectual health. and t

ranking member was congressman hutchison who was quite eloquent, and had the deep respect of chairman rodino, but hutchison was up in age and this obviously was very stressful for him. so the second ranking republican was a gentleman by the name of mcclory from illinois, i a sfronk election came very important to the advisor. but their influential to in terms of cutting this intellectual thought into this. dynamic, the congressman from california, the fbi agent, very important in because he was a very liberal person, he was the congressman's gate, sort of door to the liberal wichk of the committee at the party, but don became 3w5i78 very important. so there was a group that the congressman reached out to that became -- that were very influential coming to this decision. there's a lot of discussion, there's a lot of i think memos and they used to pack the district in newark. they would pack the big binders with all these memos and then he would read them over the weekend and all this discussion would take place with the various members. he couldn't do this without a consent to his fell lowe m

. >> did you ever have a conversation with congressman rodino? >> mm-hmm. he understood it. he didn't think it was right that he was -- he understood it. he understood president ford's motivation. lets get the country healed. again, what i say often in this conversation, he was very much a process person. he thought -- you let the system carry forward. and -- but he wasn't strong. he didn't have -- in other words, i remember this conversation we had. he just said i understand -- again, he knew very well and had a good relationship with president ford. he said i understand. you understand how we have to move on. have to keep being -- institution process. >> by the way, since we are talking about -- vice president ford, later president ford, do you remember the politicking around this selection of the vice president by president knicks son and the fact john connally was his first choice? >> mm-hmm. >> what -- >> and then -- you know, a lot of the conversation was -- had to filter out. a lot of conversation we picked president ford because -- who would want him as president. th

. >> do you remember the pressure that chairman rodino placed on mr. doerr to be a little bit more assertive? >> yes. >> yes, yes. the democrat -- the democrats, especially the ones who were most in favor of impeachment, were very concerned that the staff generally, and dear in particular, were not aggressive enough. remember, the counterpart of doar's theory about being even-handed and looking neutral, you know, is that it frustrated some of the democrats who wanted to prosecute him. who wanted somebody who was really, you know, an aggressive prosecutor. and some of them looked to me to try to perform that role. and doar would send me to talk to them to sort of satisfy them. so i would talk to some of the more -- i'll call them radical democrats who were more comfortable with me because i came off more as a prosecutorial type at that time. >> also elizabeth holtzman knew you. >> holtzman knew me. i knew charlie rangel a little bit. i knew some of the others, too. so they sort of looked to me. i would meet with them sometimes. i would tell them, yeah,

rodino. this is the second of two parts. mr. o'brien describes the work and internal politics of the judiciary committee impeachment staff and including the surprising search for a special counsel to lead the inquiry. john doar, seen here to the left of the congressman, as special counsel. mr. doar presided over the hiring of a young staff of lawyers and researchers, including future of secretary of state hillary rodham clinton. mr. doar admonished his staff not to talk about the proceedings. warning heeded for four decades. now francis o'brien. >> given how important that this was. did he show emotion? >> oh, yes. he's italian. there were times he had -- would get emotional in his measure where -- there was no doubt that john's staff understood what had to be done. i think that's -- that was the -- again, by then, there was such incredible trust. these were monumental decisions. these were -- i remember the night moving off your subject for a minute, i remember the night we had to send a letter to the president. i mean -- the d