one thing about rock thingborgia -- about run rego rodriguez -- rodrigo borgia - he was open about his mistresses. there are stories of orgies in the vatican which he and his son participated in, murders and the vatican. it was like rum under nero. -- it was like rome under nero, very bacchanal million. there was the famous and mysterious lucretia borgia. people speculated that the plague came over with the ships of columbus. i don't know that was fair but it coincided with the french invasion a year or two after cephalus becomes a problem in italy and around the rest of europe. >> you say that rodrigo borgia who was pope alexander the sex created the seven deadly sins? >> one of the refreshing things is that many of his predecessors and successors were equally corrupt, he reveled in his corruption. he did not care who knew it. he felt confident enough in himself and his power that he could get away with it. given the track record of people like sixtus the fourth who murdered his political enemies, it was safe for him to assume he could get away with it even when orola accused them, he

host: you say that rodrigo borgia, who was hope alexander vi, born in spain, that he committed the deadly since of greed, gluttony and pride? guest: yes. and one the refreshing things about rodrigo borgia is many of his predecessors and successors were equally corrupt. he sort of refuse elled in his corruption -- reveled in his corruption. he felt comfortable enough in his power that he could get away with this. given the track record of people who went around murdering people, murdering his political enemies, it was pretty safe for him to assume that he could get away with it. even when people started railing against him from the pulpit in florence, he pretty much put up with the insults as long as he was political leon board. he didn't mind being called a lustful, greedy, corrupt man. he said pretty much i am. host: i wrote down a quote when i was reading your book, "i believe christ speaks through my mouth" was his quote. and then you give the impression, or maybe it's the truth, that he was an evangelist. guest: he was a fundamentalist. he was a religious visionary. he's an interestin