ross perot himself has made many anonymous contributions in small ways. he has helped individuals without people even knowing about it. there is a hospital here named for margot perot, his wife. he has given a lot of money to the boy scouts. it is amazing there philanthropy. >> you mentioned earlier his involvement with the end of pows. can you tell us a little more what you know about his interest and that issue? how they created a divide between him and later president. >> we mentioned he graduated from the naval academy in annapolis as the president. that is a big deal. he was the sort of person in the navy who believe you are only as good as the guy left behind. he was a great leader. during those years when he was in the navy, he had sometimes had to go and get soldiers that were on leave or got drunk in a foreign town and got them back on the ship. it became sort of a hallmark -- you'd never leave anybody behind. he was very upset during the vietnam war that the united states -- we did not push the pow mia issue in that. ross perot stepped into the f

and here you have ross perot probably more right center than left center. deeply opposed to it for the reasons he said. i think the outsourcing of jobs more than anything else is what perot was focused on in the mid 1990's. >> carolyn barta, you told us about this story before but in 1995 ross perot started to organize the -- what became the reform party. can you tell us a little bit about that effort. and how the reform party took shape. >> well, the people who had worked on the perot campaign in 1992 wanted to remain involved. and for a while, even, were very active as, you know, shadowing their congressmen and sending letters and so forth. so the reform party was organized to try to create a vehicle that would be a stable political influence of third party. and then there was -- in the convention of 1996, perot and dick lamb who had been the governor of colorado indicated an interest in running on the reform party ticket. and perot re-emerged to lead the ticket. so that probably was the high point for the reform party. after that came jesse ventura was el

you knew ross perot as a journalist before many people met hi. can you tell us about his roots in texarkana and what shaped the man we knew of a national stage? >> perot was from texarkana. he had an average texas childhood. as a boy he broke horses and traded horses. he was an eagle scout. even in later tonight i think he kept all of the traits of the eagle scout. he would set of objectives and goals and try to pursue those goals. he was very much in the texas tradition of the day. as he grew and went to the naval academy and started his own businesses, he was representing the can-do spirit of texas. his vision was a big, the state was big, there were powerless opportunities. the sky was the limit. he really sort of played into what was the texas mythology with texas politicians who were larger than life, very successful businessman who made a fortune here. they were risk takers, they were not afraid to fail. that was the sort of spirit he had at that i think got him into this thing. >> noting that at the naval academy, he was president of his cl

someone said, that is ross perot. i said this could not be ross perot. >> when he went on larry king and everybody got all excited, we looked at each other -- we had him on the national press club. we sold more tapes of ross perot's speech at the national press club than anybody who had ever been there. it was a couple thousand. today it would not be that impressive. >> one other footnote to this -- it is the nature of businessmen, especially -- a hugely successful, self-made men who set their own rules. they do not cotton to having one of the reporter's telling them what is important. >> before we go to william jennings bryan, what role, jean baker, does peace-making itself make in politics? >> it has a big role, whether you are barack obama, who gets high marks for this, or whether you are william jennings bryan and you have this centurion voice. i never quite understood it -- and never quite understood this -- 20,000 people can hear you and, beyond that, another 40,000 or 50,000 would be there. >> [unintelligible]

when ross perot was running it was 58% were happy with the government. that's completely flipped.he number of independents that are dissatisfied with the choices of two-party system served up has expand over that same period of time. if if yyou look at people participating in the political system for a long time as voters or young people, they're not as tied to party system as they had been. what they're looking for is leaders that step forward and put the issues, concepts, ideas, all of them which booevwe've be committeeing and seeing in the different formats actually forward getting them through the legislature. for us and for this this organization it starts with presidential leadership. >> let's see approximate if there's leadership left in this country that can put the country ahead of the party. you know, we asked before -- there's lots of legitimate what if questions. we talk about what we're doing, and they're what-if if questions. the most substantial question is what if we do nothing? what if for the next four years we see the same kind of gridlock play out in washington

someone said, that is ross perot. i said this could not be ross perot. >> when he went on larry king and everybody got all excited, we looked at each other -- we had him on the national press club. we sold more tapes of ross perot's speech at the national press club than anybody who had ever been there. it was a couple thousand. today it would not be that impressive. >> one other footnote to this -- it is the nature of businessmen, especially hugely successful, self-made men who set their own rules. they do not cotton to having one of the reporters telling them what is important. >> before we go to william jennings bryan, what role, jean baker, does peace-making itself make in politics? >> it has a big role, whether you are barack obama, who gets high marks for this, or whether you are william jennings bryan and you have this centurion voice. i never quite understood it -- and never quite understood this -- 20,000 people can hear you and, beyond that, another 40,000 or 50,000 would be there. >> [unintelligible] we wil

you likely to see if trump gets in you you are playing the spoiler like ross perot. >> perot had 19%tor bush, trump is at 19. if huntsman decides to run as an independent, he is 11%. paul would take 17 which is statistically the same as donald trun. it seems like there is a chance of independents could run? >> you have americans elect that is gathering signatures in every state in the country. they will get on a lot of them. there will be online balloting. that person is automatically going to be a contender for at least a spoiler status. you add to this all this uncertainty out there on both sides and you have the potential for someone to jump. in i don't see a path that gets that person to the presidency. i don't think on these people, most we were talking about here is likely to get into a vanity project knowing they will swing the election. but what is missing here. ross perot he was the front-runner. he had a shot to actually do something no one had done in a century in american politics. i don't see anyone out there right now that can be viewed as that kind of big player going

and it is like, you know, ross perot redux in the sense that's what ross perot did.bush the father and that group still hasn't forgiven ross perot for what they believe is losing them the election i think can you probably say. >> there are different clusters of discontent that could be mind for a third party candidacy. trump is that blue collar, economic nationalist. feeling that we're kind of economically overtaken by china and they're kind of skeptical of the world. paul is something very different. he's probably done a better job, i think, much better job in this campaign than before, probably better than anyone at kind of elevating and articulating the libertarian point of view. he has found an audience within that republican constituency. so if he gets to the end of the road and says newt gingrich is too statous for me and decides to go run, there will be i think some people who will be listening more than there was in 1980. >> some suggested the reason he wouldn't do it is because he wouldn't -- didn't want to embarrass his son, senator ran paul. >> we should s

so we have bush, clinton, ross perot. tell us about perot and how he changed the dynamic. >> well, of course you change the dynamic of the election because the rocketed really quickly into the polls, principles. but he -- but he -- because he was not a -- the democratic and republican party actually one cannot the debate commission was formed by two parties. ross perot as an inventor of canada had no part to play in deciding when there were going to have debates, what kind of format, he was invited in after you went to a certain -- the big commission as a criteria, so high in the polls you to be in the debate. and the thing with perot was it was fascinating for me moderating a couple of his debates. because he came in determined not to attack either -- he was not going to a tax when nor bush under any circumstance. he would talk only about what his ideas work. and every time i tried to get him to criticize when he wouldn't do it. he wouldn't take the bait. but he was very conscious of the rules, very conscious of timing. e

today, the life of ross perot. after that the news debate from des moines, iowa with the republican presidential candidates. >> which part of the u.s. constitution is porpt to you? that's our question in this year's student cam competition open to middle and high school students. make a video tockmentry five to eight minutes long and tell us the part of the constitution that's important to you and why. be sure to include more than one point of view and video of c-span programming. one point of view and video of c-span programming.

tonight's focus, ross perot. again, if you want to read more about the show, you can go to our site for that. the profile of ross perot starts at 8:00, c-span.org, "the contenders." warren, michigan, thanks for holding on. brian, independent line. caller: how you doing this morning? host: fine, thank you. caller: i want to delve into what the other independent guy came in and talked about, but i'm going to get more into that. all right, you got these hearings going on, these judiciary hearings trying to get information from these public officials. why is it that the structure limits them to five minutes to where it's almost like m.m.a. fighting, to where the guy just tries to hold out for five minutes saying nothing but um, er, uh, but. and then when they ask him to reiterate, to actually answer the question, their time's up. and then it's sent on to the opposition guy, who basically praises him for all the good work he's done and doesn't even come back to the question that the guy didn't answer. so then it's put

host: the largest third party was ross perot with 19%. you actually think you can win this time around? guest: i think so. i think a lot of people do. again, if you -- you just sort of take yourself back, and when ross perot was runs, the levels of satisfaction in the country was 58%. 58% of the american people thought things were going well. lieu look right now, 81% of people think things are not going well. these numbers are from gallup, and they show people are looking for something else. what they think they're looking for is an alternative ticket, another way to actually nominate and elect their leaders, and choices that open, now to the people where people are paying attention, where usually we close down our thinking to a couple of people who are running on the democratic or republican primary. host: did you did you get host: how did you get involved? guest: this idea has been kicking around since 2006 and the f.e.c. and others couldn't really understand what. it's not a third party. it's a second way of nominating which is driven

saturday, george mcgovern, followed by billionaire businessman ross perot. "the contenders" every night at 10:00 p.m. eastern only on c- span. >> the white house recently opened its doors for tour of this year's holiday decorations. the team is "-- the theme is "shine, give, share." >> pleasure to be here. beautiful holiday ornaments. probably the state dining room is absolutely spectacular, but there are a lot of beautiful rooms. it is all done very well. [inaudible] >> a replica. you're looking at the cards. those are historical cards. >> one to my senator. senator -- office contacted the white house on my behalf. >> when did you get the word -- [inaudible] really little.'s [inaudible] ♪ ["what child is this?" playing] [inaudible] >> the house is made of gingerbread on the inside, that is the foundation, and white chocolate on the outside. in his architecturally -- it is architecturally accurate. it has all the carvings that you see on the outside of the real white house. it weighs about 400 pounds and takes about two months to make. we moved it here on mo

and we thought ross perot to that in 1992. let's remember, ross perot made the deficit reducer. ask bob rubin. ross perot had 40% of the vote at one point. he won 20%. and he was nuts. [laughter] i mean, he thought little black helicopters were chasing. that is agenda -- is agenda linked up with where the center of the country was and it had a huge effect. and that's why there were two things that would tell you about a third party if one were to emerge. one is that candidate he or she would not win. and the other as we believe that he or she had this agenda, they would have a bigger impact in the country's future than the person who does. because the only way to break out of this paralysis is by changing the incentives. these people are politicians today are not, most of them at least. they are clearly operating on a different set of incentives that we are. so we are having an economic crisis and they are having an election. and the two barely overlap. so it's like they are in a parallel universe operating two different incentives as michael said he is set by special interests,

with a focus on ross perot. later, it looked at the situation in russia and its impact here in the u.s. and the political future of vladimir putin. a sunday morning round table taking a look at that. then a look at the iowa caucus, three weeks away. coming up next, looking at the economy and the housing market. the president is on "60 minutes" tonight and expect the unemployment rate could drop to 8.0%. we are keeping an eye on the other sunday programs which can be heard on c-span radio. good morning, nancy. >> we will reader the five sunday morning talk shows beginning at noon eastern. topics today include presidential politics, the federal budget, and the postal service. at noon, "nbc's "meet the press." welcoming congressman ron paul, republican senator lynsey gramm of south carolina, a member of the budget committee, and senator dick durbin of illinois, and iowa gov. terry branstad. "this week," talking with republican presidential candidate jon huntsman. at 2:00 p.m., chris wallace talking with the gop pre

bush, bill clinton and ross perot. it scared everybody so much, there hasn't been any repeat of that since where you just kind of went at it. >> host: do you write your own opening statements? do you have full editorial control over that? >> guest: full editorial control of opening statements, certainly full editorial control of all questions. nobody -- no questions are run by anybody, certainly nobody in the, that has anything to do with the candidates or whatever, not by the debate commission, not by anybody. it is -- the moderator clearly is holding dynamite in the his or her own hands. >> host: in "tension city" there's another player in the book. her name is kate. who is kate, and ha's her role in the debate? >> guest: kate is my wife, and because i've always been so spooked by the fact that if anybody got any advance word of what questions might be asked that would be terrific intelligence, i always lock down everybody, i just quit talking to anybody including staff of "newshour" about questions i'm working on ab

where is our ross perot?at it comes down to, we have an inability to actually look at the tax code and think about what we want to do there. >> no, not -- >> it's on the other side too. not just the tax cut, but entitlement spending. >> oh, no, entitlement spending, as well. lengthy conversations about what to do with medicare. we have the paul ryan plan now out there. there has been that. but we have as a congress an inability to touch taxes. they would not pass a millionaire surtax. you cannot raise revenue in this congress. it's true. >> you think there was a national debate about the simpson/bowles commission report? >> absolutely. >> what are the tax provisions in it? >> we lower -- >> you want me to go -- >> maybe sam knows, i'm with you, i guarantee, 99% of americans don't know. we haven't had real leadership out there pushing it on the national stage. 20 years ago, ross perot ran for president of the united states. everybody talks about ross perot was a joke, he was laughable. he talked about the nati

and then on saturday, george mcgovern and billionaire ross perot.nt to tell us about which part of the constitution has meet you and why. make the documentary and get it to c-span by january 20, 2012. there is $50,000 in total prize is. cam documentaryt is open to students through sixth grade. the one line at studentcam.org for more info. >> "washington journal" continues. host: at is what to show our viewers the numbers. 340,000 in fiscal year 2011. down 24% from 2010. the lowest number recorded since 1972. hear from the pew hispanic center. 10.2 million adults, 1 million minors, 35% have been in the u.s. for 15 or more years. what is happening with immigration in the united states? guest: the numbers have dropped over the last three or four years. mainly, from what we can tell, due to a dramatic plunge on the view of unauthorized immigrants coming into the country. there is a slight increase in the number leaving. but the number of new ones coming in to replenish the numbers has plunged to a very low levels. it seems to be a combination, all the f

. >> greta: in 1992, ross perot ran as an independent and he denied president h.w. bush a second term ncollecting republican votes. would a third-party candidate in 2012 automatically mean that president obama would receive a second term? >> no, i don't think so at all. i think if it's the right person, very high-profile, somebody respected that built, perhaps a great, great business, which i have, in my case, i really think a third-party candidate can win. i think the republicans would not win. i think the republicans would not win. a think a third-party candidate would win. i think i take a lot of votes from obama, a lot of votes from obama. but it's a very interesting process that is going on with third party. look, the republicans are disliked by everybody. the democrats are disliked by everybody. the president's numbers are tential. certainly, a third party, the right third-party candidate could come in, in my opinion and win. i do think if it's somebody like me or the people they mentioned, i think it would mean the republicans can't win issue but a third-part

why did ross perot find an audience? what did it mean for you? >> and lot of campaigns, we were not optimistic about much. we thought was the worst thing that happened. 6:30, getting the gold book, what ever was. i just would not allow myself to think of it. the downside, i would not allow anyone to think of that. the convention was when the thing broke. there is a real reasoning behind that. people saw something talented where once they were able to connect to be was where he was from, the agenda and the biography. >> consistent with what i believe about bill clinton, in 1991 i took bill clinton to the build a bird -- builder word -- buildaberg meetings. two other u.s. politicians there were doug wilder and senators dianne feinstein. at that meeting, what do you do and how do you do it? they want to know who this guy is and where arkansas is. >> i said to the europeans that he is going to be the next president of the united states. that he is a republican for bush. so, he won. the steering committee came to washington in january. i said, mr. pre

and george mcgovern, followed by ross perot. every night at 10:00 p.m.n. >> republican presidential candidate ron paul held a campaign rally last night. >> i do solemnly swear that i will support and defend the constitution of the united states. against all enemies foreign and domestic. i will obey the orders of the president of the united states. and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and uniform codes and justice. so help me god. i first swore that both bac and 1976. to support and defend the constitution of the united states. like you, i kept my oath. and january of this year 12 months ago i was sworn in by an iowa state rep. the oath i took was as follows. i do solemnly swear that i will support the constitution of the united states. and the constitution of the state of iowa. i will discharge the duties of representing according to the best of my abilities. notice again in the oath i will support the constitution of the united states. i am keeping that oath. there is another man who we all know who has been fully s

there is no ross perot. there is no george wallace. there is no obvious, obvious third party candidate. willie brown and michael steele, always a pleasure to talk to you both. >> thank you, chuck. >>> up next, which republican presidential candidate earned a 12th pants on fire rating over at politifact for not telling truth at last night's debate, again. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

ross perot spoke out about trade issues in the 1992 presidential debate. this week on "the communicators," a discussion about choices facing congress, broadcasters and the president on rod caste spectrum. >> host: well this week on "the communicators" we are pleased to introduce you to dale hatfield. he is a member of the commerce department spectrum management advisory committee. he is also a professor at the university of colorado and he is considered to be one of the nation's foremost experts on spectrum and spectrum policy. he joins us this week on "the communicators." professor hatfield, if we could, a lot of talk here in washington about spectrum shortage. when you hear that term, what does it mean to you and is there a spectrum shortage? >> guest: that's a really good and very fundamental question. the spectrum, the radio spectrum is the part that we are most interested in, is already allocated and mostly assigned so if i have a new use, maybe a use that has a lot of public interest, it may be very difficult for me to get access to spectrum. on the

democrats are all guilty of yeah clinton was the biggest one i mean to go yeah yeah absolutely ross perot was right in my opinion exactly well there's a lot of times that that happens but i think what the president's are trying to do is to make the products hopefully costs less for american consumers but it doesn't always work as consumers don't have jobs what good does it do i mean we've lost just in the last. the last eleven years we've lost fifty six thousand factories in the last twenty years we've lost one hundred thousand factories as the. jobs it's factories and it is millions when reagan came into office thirty four percent of our g.d.p. was produced by manufacturing is now eleven percent that's you can't have an industrial nation with well we also didn't have a lot of the things that we have today i phones and different things like that but the but why didn't the companies a manufacturing united states because it's regulation no tax holiday you were there absolutely are going to they just make it cheaper overseas study published showed that apple could manufacture all of their pr

something i don't really i don't know you've done an iranian about a party thank you very much ross perot was talking about that party in the reform party exactly and of course ralph nader the green party the two thousand election i actually voted for ralph nader in that election as all of the i lived in vermont i figured it was a safe when i lived in utah it was even safer yeah and my wife for al gore you know who we thought would be and why the still thing did win but the point is you do it . every time if you look back at the history of in the united states of third parties other than the whigs emerging out of the ashes the federalist and then the republicans emerging out of the ashes the whigs every other time a third party has been started it basically shoots its own people in the foot with the other party. why not infiltrate the democratic party which is more and more aligned with your values in the republican party presumably why not infiltrate them from the grassroots up and to take them over this is giant apparatus there just sit there saying please volunteer to be committee prec

ross perot spoke out about trade issues during the 1992 presidential debate. billionaire businessman made two attempts for the presidency, the first time getting over 19 million votes. more popular votes than any third-party candidate in american history. although the loss, he has had a lasting influence on american politics. is our final candidate in our 14-week series "the contenders." to preview other video on ross perot and see all the programs from our series, go to c- span.org. >> december 7, 1941 -- a date which will live in infamy. in this sunday for 24 hours, american history tv looks at the japanese attack on american military forces at pearl harbor, including the seventh anniversary commemorative ceremony overlooking the u.s.s. arizona memorial at 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. eastern. a live call-in program at noon, 2:00, and 4:00 with world war ii historians. throughout the day, first-person accounts from servicemen and civilians. this week's national park service conference at pearl harbor, a tour of the visitors center, and archival footage of the att

ross perot had 40% of the vote at one time and 120% and he was nuts. [laughter] in the end he thought the little black helicopters were chasing him. but his agenda leap up to where the center of the country was. it had a huge effect. that is why there are two things we will tell you about a third party if one were to emerge. one. that candidate would not wind. the other is we believe that if he or she has this agenda , they would have a bigger impact on the country's future than the person who does. peak is the only way to break out of this paralysis is by changing the incentives. these people are not stupid. there clearly operating on a different set of incentives. so i say we do that economic crisis and they have the election. they barely overlap. so it is like they are in a parallel universe operating to defend the incentives, money and politics, and the only way to change that, move the cheese, a move the mouse. if you don't move ritchie's the mouse does not move. we need to move ritchie's to show these two parties that there is a huge chunk of cha

on saturday, george mcgovern followed by ross perot. ." every night at 10:00 a.m. on c-span. >> have you tried that three c- span radio act? >> if is fast, easy to use, and digital appealing. the audio quality as convincingly clear. insanely great deal considering it is also free. it took me 10 seconds to learn how to use it. >> anytime, anywhere, it's streaming audio of c-span radio and all three c-span television networks, including live coverage of congress. you've listened to our interview programs. c-span, available wherever you are. find out more at c-span.org. studentcam year's video competition, tell us which part of the constitution has meaning to you and why. let us know and apply it to eight minute document and get it to us by january 20, less than a month of away, to win the grand prize of $5,000. did the thousand dollars in total prize as. -- $50,000 in total prize is. for complete details, go online to studentcam.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: this is that "washington journal," and we are live in des moines isle of where on january 3 th

then come, followed by ross perot. 10:00 p.m. eastern. >> ben nelson, a democratic senator, is retiring. he is not running for reelection. here he is, talking about his retirement yesterday. >> there is much which must be done to keep america strong. i also feel it is time for me to step away and spend more time with my family. >> watches appearances dating back to 1991, archive and searchable, on line with the c- span video library. >> middle and high school students, we want you to tell us which part of the constitution is meaningful to you. make a documentary and get it to us for your chance to win the grand prize of $5,000. there is $50,000 and apprises. the video documentary program is open to grades 6 through 12. find the rules on line. >> our road to the white house coverage leading up to the iowa caucuses continues, with republican presidential candidate mitt romney, speaking at a campaign rally in ames, iowa. we have heard his campaign bus has arrived here. mitt romney plans to end what has been a three day bus tour with

. >> ross perot spoke out about trade issues in the 1992 presidential debate. the billionaire businessman made two attempts at the presidency. the first time getting over 19 million votes, more popular votes than any third-party candidate in american history. although he lost, he had a lasting influence on american politics. he is our final candidate in c- span's 14-week series "the contenders." to preview other video on ross perot and see all of the programs in the series, go to c- span.org/the contenders. "washington journal" continues. host: america by the numbers series. today we are looking at the nation's infrastructure. it to help us work through the numbers and to talk about what it means is patricia hu, the bureau of transportation and statistics, the director, and also john morsley of the association of state highway and transportation officials. welcome. can we start talking about the bureau of transportation statistics and what it does? guest: it was created by the 1992 inter-modal service transportation act and it created it as a federal statistica

said today, george mcgovern followed by ross perot.he contenders" of the night at 10:00 eastern on c-span. >> on c-span, billion avers the host a discussion on william f. buckley. -- yale university hosts a discussion on william f. buckley. and later, another chance to see tonight's "q&a

it's the last time you saw this was probably ross perot, right? >> what do you think? >> legalizing drugs and heroin, that's as liberal as you get. >> that's a conservative one, too, right? individual responsibility. >> no. >> i want legalization. >> it won't play well in iowa. that's definitely not a conservative platform. i will say this, when you look at the supporters he has in iowa, a lot of independents, democrat based on the way you can vote in these caucuses, so he's not cornering the conservative market. only has 56% of republican support. i tend to agree with dick morris on this. >> are you going to explode? >> no, not at all. i'm in a holiday mood. let me just say, this i usually don't comment on dick's analysis, but i will here briefly. first of all, you have to understand the historical context of libertarians. it goes back a long, long way. they've held the same positions for a long, longtime. he's been on both the republican ballots and presidential ballots as a libertarian. libertarians who follow this guy agree you that ought to legalize drugs. they ag

here is a guy who doesn't have, other guys who have run as a third party candidate you thing of ross perot, and others, ralph nader, i looked at them as having monsterrous egos, promoting themself first and ron paul is different than that. he is a humble man. he is a person who truly is affixed to his ideas. she not influenceable in any way. i don't see him putting the country at stake because, in fact, you are right, if ron paul chose to run as an independent candidate he would not be elected but he would virtually assure president obama would be re-elected as president. >>shepard: and i am sure he knows that. you don't think there is anything the party could offer, no rise for him here? he is not the kind of go that would go for that? >>guest: it would be a mistake to try. he was not even a person as a house of representatives member that we went after to try and get his vote. we knew he would stand on his own principles, that is why people love him, and, in fact, it was not worth trying to make a deal because he all right had his mind made up. >>shepard: terry, good to see you. as repub

candidates have three things -- a regional base, george wallace a burning issue, george wallace or ross perot, got 19% of the vote and a vivid personality and lord knows that perot and wallace had that. >> who was the most influential politician of 2011. >> john boehner. he bested the president time after time. >> i can't say the president. okay, i have to agree with george, then, john boehner. >> otherwise, the president? >> the president is still the president. and he can set an agenda in a way that others can't. >> paul ryan who put forward a campaign to reform entitlement spending. think he shaped the debate and made clear that this is an argument that we can make and make with confidence. >> i'll say paul ryan, slightly different take, he put forth the idea that you could actually tackle entitlements and survive politically and he got every single republican in the house to sign on to his plan. we'll see if it works. a major factor in the election going forward. they'll demonize ryan going forward. but i think paul ryan. >> do you think, of course, we actually saw our own george will and