we're going to see the strongest third-party candidacy since ross perot. >> i'm going to maybe dodge this question. in my view, we were going to have a shutdown and i was actually one of the people making it. but i did say that kevin mccarthy would not be speaker long, so i do get credit for that. my prediction, just for fun, is that biden and trump will drop out and barbie will be the next president. >> karl: we'll be right back. bi next president. >> jonathan: we'll be right bab.

look at george wallace, ralph nader, ross perot, they didn't go on to win a single state. >> well, rememberrot at one point was at 30%. that was in the summer. we have until august actually to pull out, early august, if we decide not to run with the ticket that's in place. so we're months ahead of where perot was. perot got on all 50 states and got up to 30%. >> he didn't win any of them. >> i know, remember, he pulled out. but it's different. 30 years is different. you didn't have -- i was with president bush when ross perot actually called to say he was going to run. we know that in fact we can win some states. and we would be in it to win it. we have a long time here. but the american public is frankly disgusted with what they see today. >> in it to win it, fred upton, former republican congressman, thanks very much for being with us. merry christmas. >> you, too. >> talk to you soon. >>> well, new warnings this morning along the u.s./mexico border. local law enforcement sounding the alarm it does not have the manpower for the expected surge of migrants trekking as part of a caravan to t

. >> a look back at from independent presidential candidates in 19 ross perot and maury tay sought tosupport. next, a few ads from their campaign. >> it was not long ago that harley davidson was about to fail because of free trade with the japanese. the free traders leveled the playing field. our jobs are in trouble again. the people in washington like bob dole and bill clinton have never made anything. i am a manufacturer and not a politician or a lawyer. i had the business sense we need to keep fair trade for americans. >> as president ross perot will explain changes to major programs like medicare and social security. it is your tax dollars. your programs. so you should decide. vote for perrault. >> there is one more bottle to fight. we have to take our country back from special interests. >> vote for ross. >> next, a lite more from president biden's ip to milwaukee. the journal sentinel newspaper reported his visit tohe states black chamber of commerce was intended to highlight his administrations support for black business. they are considered crucial for president biden in his r

. >> a look back at from candidates in 1996.ntial ross perot and taylor sought to solidify support. next, a few ads from their campaign. >> it was not long ago that harley davidson was about to fail because of free trade with the japanese. the free traders leveled the playing field. our jobs are in trouble again. the people in washington like bob dole and bill clinton have never made anything. i am a manufacturer and not a politician or a lawyer. i had the business sense we need to keep fair trade for americans. >> as president ross perot will explain changes to major programs like medicare and social security. it is your tax dollars. your programs. so you should decide. vote for perrault. >> there is one more bottle to fight. we have to take our country back from special interests. >> vote for ross. >> next, a little more from president biden's trip to milwaukee. the journal sentinel newspaper report his visit to the states black chamber of commerce was innded to highlight his administrations support for black business. they are considered crucial for president biden in his reelect

ross perot and others.t of the challenge and part of the frustration is what americans currently feel. compounded upon all of that is 2008. it's not the financial crisis. it's the ability to raise money online. it's the internet itself, the ability to react. twitter and x can have a lot of bots and members would react to it. the drawing of the lines. there's less competitiveness. it's more within the primary. all that compounded on itself, i would say, internally for a party, a party usually has a party usually has ahead to it. the only person to become the head of the party is when someone gets elected president. the outside party drives to see who that person is. the last two presidential elections were not one by america voting for aspirational of what they wanted their president to be. it was voting against somebody. anytime a country elects somebody based on someone they do not want, you are leaderless in a way. it's like putting your hand in a bucket of water. we are in the mixed of filling it right n

ross perot and maury taylor sought to solidify support. next, a few ads from their campaign. >> it was not long ago that harley davidson was about to fail because of free trade with the japanese. the free traders leveled the playing field. our jobs are in trouble again. the people in washington like bob dole and bill clinton have never made anything. i am a manufacturer and not a politician or a lawyer. i had the business sense we need to keep fair trade for americans. >> as president ross perot will explain changes to major programs like medicare and social security. it is your tax dollars. your programs. so you should decide. vote for perrault. >> there is one more bottle to fight. we have to take our country back from special interests. >> vote for ross. >> next, a little more from president biden's trip to milwaukee. the journal sentinel newspar reported his visit to the states black chambeof commerce was intended to highlight his administrations support for black business. they are considered crucial for president biden in his reelect

look at history of this and people going back to john anderson and think about ross perot, 19% and anderson%, gary johnson and jill stein, single digits. they are spoilers, not winners. they would likely spoil for joe biden. >> mike: great job, happy new year. see you next sunday. up next, powerful people in the world could be on a list no one wants to be on and will be made public this week. details right after this. ♪ my name is josh sanabria and i am the owner at isla veterinary boutique hospital. i was 5...6 years of age and i knew i was going to be a vet. once alexandra called me to let me know that bank of america had approved my loan... it was important to me. we not only just provide the financing piece, we do everything that we can to surround them with the right people. all you need is a perfect, amazing team that will guide you through the right steps to be successful. and that's what bank of america was for me. >> we are likely to learn who participated in sex escapades of jeff jeffrey epstein. the list is expected to be outed. 150 people mentioned could appeal the ruling. the l

. >> as president ross perot will explain changes to major programs like medicare and social securityit is your tax dollars. your programs. so you should decide. vote for perrault. >> there is one more bottle to fight. we have to take our country back from special interests. >> vote for ross. >> next, a little more from president biden's trip to milwaukee. the journal sentinel newspaper reported his visit to the states black chamber of commerce was intended to highlight his administrations support for black business. they are considered crucial for president biden in his reelection bid. in 2020 he won the state by just 20,000 votes. >> record job creation and historic economic growth. we have among the lowest inflation rates among any country on this earth. we are trying to give folks a little more breathing room. my guide used to say, let's be clear, republicans are again so many critical actions. just remember how the pandemic hits black businesses especially hard. how my predecessor on his watch, women minorities and small businesses found themselves last in line. on my watch, ener

think joe biden's bigger if play is to have all these third party candidates to help him the way ross perot but he got 19% of the popular vote. that would be his play. the problem is he's not the challenger here, he's the incumbent, and we roy really helped bill clinton and hurt the incouple preponderate -- will: right now it looks like the third party would hurt joe biden, not trump. >> there you go. there are lots of billionaires out there, 1 is 11 is 00 or so in this country, i read that minute can say i'm worth 7 billion, why not spend one-seventh of that having pun in a presidential race. they'll take their happen half a billion and embarrass that -- the way bloomberg's people did. i think if you're joe biden, stick to plan a, get trump the through the legal system. will: right. >> and they believe that in the 91 counts if he's convicted on 1, game over. if they can send the president to jail god forbid bid for one night, that's enough for them. but it's not going to work for another reason. joe biden probably won't even debate don trump. -- donald trump. being able to defend this horr

again, his point that is, messina's point, ross perot didn't get a single electorate vote last time thiso you make of that? >> that was pretty good that perot got 19%. we think the current system for the electoral college, although i'm not a big fan of it based on my experience in 2000, is that most of the states have winner take all electoral college votes. think about it. if we weren't a strong bipartisan ticket and it gets more than a third of the vote, we're probably going to carry in a state the electoral votes in that state and have an opportunity to either elect our ticket or affect who is elected and who comes out of the electoral college. so look, we're very well-aware that as we talked about last time i was on, neil, the last third-party candidate for president that won was abraham lincoln. that's a long time ago. >> neil: you're right. i remember covering that race, senator. he defied -- the republican was a new emerging party. that is unusual. that's what you hear. it's unusual. >> your coverage was really great. >> neil: thank you. >> i don't know if you remember it, because

you think about ross perot he got 19%. john anderson about 7%.recent years you think about gary johnson. they are all done in single digits these people are spoilers they are not winners and the idea is they would spoil it and most likely spoil for joe biden. mike: a right panel great job happy new year. we will see you next sunday put up next some of the richest and most powerful people in the world could be on a list and no one was to be on that is expected to be made public this week. he tells right after this. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us ♪ ♪ >> we are likely to rerp in the coming days just who participated in the sexual's e capades and abuses of the late financier jeffrey end -- epstein. some of the names may be familiar to you. this week some high profile friends and associateses of of the late jeffrey end teen are expected to be outed. a federal judge allowed time for any of the more than 150 people mentioned to appeal her ruling. the list of jane

cash advantage to win and we have seen that with a lot of self funders over the years whether it's ross perot mike bloomberg didn't get to where they wanted to get and remember, hillary clinton spent more money than donald trump in 2016, we know who won that race. >> weird things that i notice but you're the expert's you don't have to go off like i do -- the strategy for vivek ramaswamy right now, he says he's not listening to advisors, he's going his own way but it looks self-destructive, what do you think? >> i think he had a great start to the primary campaign, he came out in the former vice president mike pence was going after him, nikki haley was going after him and that was actually a sign of strength the fact they are going after this person who a lot of people didn't know. i think he had a very rough night last night, that was not a good debate performance. he's trying to be kind of trump-like but he's running against trump, that's part of the reason he hasn't attacked vivek ramaswamy and last night was very rough. >> someone got so far as to say he was doing the bidding out there i t

. >> and you and i are remember ross perot got 19% of the vote and 13% and got zero electoral votes.y has a chance here is complete b.s. so the question is who do they take votes away from? in states like arizona, which joe biden won by 11,000 votes, georgia, a little around the same number, like we just cannot have a third-party candidate taking away votes. so i think it's just a silly idea being run by people that want to make money off of politics and any message to voters is just wake up and realize you don't want to throw your vote away. >> neil: you're not always throwing that vote away though. as you said, i'm a little old. i can remember george wallace. he won five states. got 10 million votes, 46 electoral votes in 1968. i was there to cover teddy roosevelt. you didn't know that about me. back then, he did better than the republican incumbent president, taft, at the time. so you know, got a fair number of pretty impressive votes here. i'm talking about 0 electoral votes back then, 4.1 million vote as cross six states. 27% of the vote. it's not too shabby. >> i noticed you di

we're going to see the strongest third-party candidacy since ross perot. >> i'm going to maybe dodgeion. in my view, we were going to have a shutdown and i was actually one of the people making it. but i did say that kevin mccarthy would not be speaker long, so i do get credit for that. my prediction, just for fun, is that biden and trump will drop out and barbie will be the next president. >> karl: we'll be right back. bi next president. >> jonathan: we'll be right bab. >> jonathan: as >> jonathan: >> karl: as we turn the page to 2024, we wanted to take a moment to recognize the hard work of the people who make this show possible each and every sunday. have a safe and happy new year. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (upbeat music) women and men actresses and actors. the biggest movies and tv series of the year. the artist and soundtracks that made music to our ears, and the superstar athletes that left us in awe. all this and much more on the best of the best. 202 >> we pay homage to the magnificent men who proved that they all were not created equal. bad bunny

but speak at historians here let's put this in perspective we had populism 1992 pat buchanan and ross perot. it populism back in the 1930s this is not new. we should not be shocked that this happened this periodically happens in american history when the average feel they've gotten the shaft it's hard to raise your family it's hard to keep a job it's hard to get ahead. >> one thing to study populist movements in american history they tend to arise with his great skepticism about the so-called elites. that is a a term we hear thrown around white eight lot. the perception is the elites are whoever they are our corrupt they are running this country to their own advantage and not to the advantage or the interest of the average american. what do you think of those times of claims to think as a coterie of elites running things to their own interests? >> historically as you point out it happens when people feel they are otherwise not being heard and it becomes a popular movement. it's a popular movement against an existing income but usually. what tends to do is empower people but only certain p p

sure, you can point to ross perot, but he came nowhere near being elected. >> i was an only child and knew liz cheney was going to be on. the world can only end once. we've had a 250-year democratic/republic. th that's pretty solid. >> that's really a short period of time. >> could this be -- would this really be the end of the republic? the sad thing is i can't give it a zero. i can't say that the chances of that are -- i think it's unlikely. he was colluding with russia and then the end of the world was going to be the first impeachment, the second impeachment, now these trials. i've seen it. his enemies do tend to overexaggerate things, but i can't say it's zero. can you? >> no. >> you think it's like 80%? i'm saying it's not zero percent. >> end of the world-type stuff that concerns me is nuclear weapons. what we're seeing with ukraine, iran, you know, there are things that -- with israel, there are things that seriously concern me, and i think whoever detective whomever is in the white house has an impact on that, but i don't know what that means yonlds that. >> we don't want our

we had populism in 92 with pat buchanan and and ross perot. we had populism back in 68 with george wallace. we had populism back in the 1930s with huey long. this is not new. we should not be shocked that this happens. this periodically happens in american history when the average person, the average guy feels he's gotten the shaft. she's gotten the shaft. it's hard to raise her family. it's hard to keep a job. it's hard to get ahead. you know, one of the things, if you study populist movements in american history is they tend to arise when there is great skepticism about the so-called elites. and that's a term that we hear thrown around quite a lot. you know, the elites and perception that the elites, whoever they are, are corrupt and that they're running this country to their own advantage. and not to the advantage or the interests of the average american. what do you think of those kinds of claims? do you think there is a kind of coterie of elites who are running things to their own interests, you know? well, historically, as you point out,

we had populism in 92 with pat buchanan and and ross perot. we had populism back in 68 with george wallace. we had populism back in the 1930s with huey long. this is not new. we should not be shocked that this happens. this periodically happens in american history when the average person, the average guy feels he's gotten the shaft. she's gotten the shaft. it's hard to raise her family. it's hard to keep a job. it's hard to get ahead. you know, one of the things, if you study populist movements in american history is they tend to arise when there is great skepticism about the so-called elites. and that's a term that we hear thrown around quite a lot. you know, the elites and perception that the elites, whoever they are, are corrupt and that they're running this country to their own advantage. and not to the advantage or the interests of the average american. what do you think of those kinds of claims? do you think there is a kind of coterie of elites who are running things to their own interests, you know? well, historically, as you point out,

two, one in 1996 for the democratic incumbent was reelected despite the third-party candidate, ross perotone in 1980 where the incumbent democrat, jimmy carter, lost, and there was a third party candidate, john anderson. what is the fundamental difference between years and which a third-party candidate helps a democrats versus those in which they harm to democrat -- harm the democrats? >> it depends on the candidates running. this is why i positioned this, this is a real pain in. i can't even say myself. this is a life-size painting of teddy roosevelt. and his election, he enabled woodrow wilson to win in 1912. it all depends on the candidates. depends on the economy and whether or not we are in a warlike situation. you can't say that it helps one party or another. because right now it is exactly -- i mean to their percentage points, that even between trump and biden and who gets help and who gets hurt. i don't know the answer to your question because i don't think it is answerable. >> thank you. >> bad state, bad electoral counting, but really good question, matthew. >> that's a thing i

independents are getting a lot more attention than they have been in the past, so you get a ross perotituation in 1992? i think it probably hurts -- if you look at rfk, junior, i am not so sure about cornell west. certainly if you had a moderate or whatever amounts to a moderate republican these days like a liz cheney or larry hogan. that would seem to hurt biden and his coalition. rfk, junior, is a little more of a wildcard. because he kind of hits the joe rogan crowd. that would more likely to eat into donald trump's base of support. we have not even got to no labels yet. i don't know what this does. convention chaos. [laughter] guest: well, our latest poll shows that when you put all of these names in with trump and biden, rfk, junior, is pulling 8%, cornell estimate 3%, so you have a number of people attracting boats. i think the important thing to think about when we think about third parties, as you guys know, it actually comes down to a small number of battleground states and who is on the ballot. one, does rfk get on the ballot in wisconsin and michigan and arizona and georgia,

independents are getting a lot more attention than they have been in the past, so you get a ross perotituation in 1992? i think it probably hurts -- if you look at rfk, junior, i am not so sure about cornell west. certainly if you had a moderate or whatever amounts to a moderate republican these days like a liz cheney or larry hogan. that would seem to hurt biden and his coalition. rfk, junior, is a little more of a wildcard. because he kind of hits the joe rogan crowd. that would more likely to eat into donald trump's base of support. we have not even got to no labels yet. i don't know what this does. convention chaos. [laughter] guest: well, our latest poll shows that when you put all of these names in with trump and biden, rfk, junior, is pulling 8%, cornell estimate 3%, so you have a number of people attracting boats. i think the important thing to think about when we think about third parties, as you guys know, it actually comes down to a small number of battleground states and who is on the ballot. one, does rfk get on the ballot in wisconsin and michigan and arizona and georgia,

i mean, if you remember perot many if you remember ross perot many years shame years ago, it's such a're going to vote for who they want. least you apply politics you could apply that to politics here when it comes to here as well. when it comes to the next election. here as well. when it comes to the situation tion. ridiculous. >> situation here is ridiculous. >> situation here is ridiculous. >> i because >> i know, i know because despite stephen pound's passionate championing of keir starmer, . and that's starmer, he's dull. and that's what most people think. he's not inspiring dull. >> anyway, i mean, liz truss wasn't dull. >> anyway, i mean, liz truss wasno dull. >> anyway, i mean, liz truss wasno , ull. >> anyway, i mean, liz truss wasno , it's not about whether >> no, it's not about whether they're though . they're dull, though. >> it's about whether they are safe, labour safe, capable and labour campaign slogan give me darlings i >> -- >> well, i m >> well, i think, i think barium wm >> well, i think, i think, um, rishi sunak is competent and he's good on technical detail. i ju