with your permission, i would like to give your mother the last word. >> my name is ruby freeman.at, but this is not the way it was supposed to be. (soft chuckle) i built my own business around that name, laruby's unique treasures, a pop-up shop catering to ladies with unique fashions. i wore a shirt that proudly proclaimed that i was and i am lady ruby. actually, i had that shirt on-- i had that shirt in every color. i wore that shirt on election day 2020. i haven't worn it since, and i'll never wear it again. now i won't even introduce myself by my name anymore. there is nowhere i feel safe. nowhere. do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states to target you? the president of the united states is supposed to represent every american. not to target one. but he targeted me, lady ruby, a small business owner, a mother, a proud american citizen who stand up to help fulton county run an election in the middle of the pandemic. ♪ ♪ >> narrator: federal prosecutors have cited the lies about freeman and moss in their indictment. >> "co-conspirator 1 orchestrated a

defamation case, $16,171,000 for ruby freeman $16,998,000 for shaye moss for defamation another $20reeman for emotional distress another $20 million for shaye moss on emotional distress $75 million for both on punitive damages. so that's the $148.169 million at this moment, rudy giuliani owes $500,000 in unpaid taxes. the irs has a lien on his palm beach property he's selling his upper east side apartment. it's on the books -- it's on the market for $6 million but it hasn't been sold yet and his consulting firm defaulted on a debt for a phone bill >> seth: he defaulted on a phone bill he bounced a check for his neck removal surgery. he owes $1 million in unpaid parking tickets for parking his car inside the living room of his apartment. he missed a credit card payment for a locksmith he hired to get into his house which he locked himself out of and then a second locksmith he hired to get him out of his house he had locked himself into [ light laughter ] he also owes blockbuster multiple copies of himself "rudy" after returns the ones he rented with himself edited into the footage. ♪

in his conversation with raffensperger, he talks:00 ruby freeman and shaye moss, the two african americanction workers who were falsely accused of stuffing ballots. he brought them up 18 times. he was obsessed with this stuff. >> and by the way, one of the reasons -- this is story is about len wood and sidney powell. it's colorful. it's bizarre. it's exotic. it also is dangerous and it had real consequences. they are all over social media in georgia and around the country, and they are spreading this stuff. and you end up with -- part of the reason this is a compelling story to us is because of the human toll on people like ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss. it was horrible. >> they've won a judgment now against rudolph giuliani. >> that's right. >> who horrifically defamed them. >> just as easily get one against donald trump. >> thank you so much. again, the new book, "find me the votes" a fascinating look at the rogue president and the plot to steal an american election goes on sale tomorrow. >>> coming up, king charles and princess of wales out of the hospital. what we know abou

people like ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss, it was horrible. -- who just horrific lee defamed them and -- >> yes, manual, thank you so, much i thank you so, much again the new book find me the, votes a fascinating, vote georgia prosecutor rogue president and a plot to steal an american election goes on sale tomorrow. coming up king charles and princess was out of the, hospital what we know about the next steps. you may know adam schiff's work to protect the rule of law, or to build affordable housing, or write california's patients bill of rights. but i know adam through the big brother program. we've been brothers since i was seven. he stood by my side as i graduated from yale, and i stood by his side when he married eve, the love of his life. i'm a little biased, but take it from adam's little brother. he'll make us all proud as california senator. i'm adam schiff and i approve this message. >>> tonight king charles and cat and princess of wales are both back home recovering after being hospitalized. the king had corrective surgery for enlarged prostate, and still mystery su

you mentioned shaye moss and ruby freeman, their defamation case against rudy giuliani. they were asking for a few million dollars. a lot of people thought that was too much. the contrary came back with almost $150 million. >> just to explain, the punitive damages, right, if they're around $10 million, because the first time she got like $5 million, the first defamation case that e. jean carroll got. then on top of that, the jury can say, here is the punitive charges, but here is for her pain and suffering. >> exactly, the punitive damages are about what will it take to make -- >> make him stop. >> never lie about another person who is a victim of sexual assault, especially someone that he himself has sexually assaulted. we want to think about the $5 million verdict. that was about comments that trump made when he was not president. this damages award will be about what trump said when he was president of the united states, in other words, when he had the biggest mega phone in the world, and he used that megaphone to lie about a woman who he himself sexually assaulted. >

can you imagine what they would have done with that video if the bag were in the hands of ruby freeman and shaye moss, or poll workers in detroit? the point isn't about ballot security, it's not about a process that votes are counted, it's not about mail in balloting, no. for republicans, for trump, to cry voting integrity is virtue signaling, it signals who they think should control elections and which people they think are really where there are representation. representation o the box and it's ready to go our cost for shipping, were cut in half just like that go to shipstation/tv and get 2 months free i'm jonathan lawson, here to tell you about life insurance just like that through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85 and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three p's. what are the three p's? the three p's of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54. what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i'm 65 and take medicatio

in the indictment of fulton county, kodi is alleged to have threatened to ruby freeman to falsely admithave the portion of the video to listen to now. >> everybody is alive. there's no murder weapon. as a matter of fact, there's a woman sitting somewhere who knows this whole thing is a lie, who knows i never did anything, who knows i -- who knows she begged me for help. there's a woman sitting somewhere who knows that i'm going to [ bleep ] her whole life up when this is done. >> now, d.a. fani willis has not moved to revoke the bond conditions, but now trevian codi may have to represent herself pro se. >> that's her that's kutti, the judge warned what it means not to have representation, not always the best way to go. she says she is now looking for additional counsel, perhaps even someone who is on this call. every defendant in this country, danny cevallos, defense attorney, every defendant, whatever they've done, has the right to representation, but if you have a client who you believe is willfully and blatantly violating the terms of her release, of her bond, right, would you take h

. >> ruby freeman and shaye freeman moss and one other gentlemen quite obviously surreptitiously dancingat was your mom handing to you on that video? >> a ginger mint. >> remember how democrats and people of color cannot be trusted to count votes? they were stealing in part of a conspiracy? just keep that in mind as you watch this alternative universe in iowa, and which republicans gather and incredibly homogenous population of folks. in this context, perfectly fine passing a paper bag around stuffing it with votes. can you and manchin what they would have done with that video if the bag were in the hands of ruby freeman and shaye moss, poll workers in detroit? it's not about the process that votes are counted. it's not about mail-in balloting. for republicans, for trump, to try voting integrity is virtue signaling. it signals who they think should control elections and which people they think are worthy of representation. >>>f representation >>>f representation >> change your mind. it's simple. anything else i can help you with? like what? visionworks. see the difference. we're talking

in atlanta, george bray black mother and her daughter, ruby freeman, and sherry moss, were doing their jobs. electron workers until john trump is maga followers, target and threatened them, forcing them from their homes. unless she races vitriol on trumps personal lawyer, runner, juliani. we just it with a $148000000.00 judgment for crating and defamation. he inflicted against other state local elected officials across the country face similar personal attacks. in addition, fox news agreed to pay a record, a $787000000.00 wise they told about voter fraud. let's be clear about the 2020 election. a. trump exhausted every legal avenue available to him to overturn the election. everyone. but the legal plan, just to trump back to the truth that i had one the election and he was a lose. the no, no, he had one that left one desperate act available. violence of january, the 6th sense that day more than $1200.00 people had been charged for the solemn the cat for milly. 900 of them have been convicted, replied gilbert collectively. today, they have been sentenced to more than a 140 years in pris

rudy giuliani: tape, earlier in the day, of ruby freeman and shaye freeman moss, and one other gentleman quite obviously surreptitiously passing around usb ports as if they're vials of heroin or cocaine. i mean, it's obvious to anyone who's a criminal investigator or prosecutor, they are engaged in surreptitious illegal activity. adam schiff: what was your mom actually handing you on that video? shaye moss: a ginger mint. this turned my life upside down. i don't want anyone knowing my name. i don't want to go anywhere with my mom because she might yell my name out over the grocery aisle or something. i haven't been anywhere at all. i've gained about 60 pounds. it's affecting my life in a major way. jake tapper: congressman adam kinzinger of illinois, the only republican on the january 6 committee other than liz cheney, says all the threats are part of trump's plan. adam kinzinger: i don't think you can look at the words and actions of donald trump and think that he wanted anything except the explosion of these threats to people. he could stop that in a second if he wanted to, but he like

she was an expert witness in carroll's first try and testified in the trial brought by ruby freeman.ed after trump and giulniccused them of committing fraud and the jury awarded them nearly $150 million in damages. humphreys estimated the cost for carroll to repair her reputation would be between 7.2 and $12.1 million leaving open how much could carroll get if the jury decides with her. will it be enough to stop the ex president from speaking out against her? that's where we start this hour. we have former u.s. attorney mia wiley, state department official during the obama administration, rick stengel, also charlie sykes and outside the courthouse msnbc legal analyst lisa ruben. lisa, what was it like in the courtroom today? donald trump, i understand, was not there. >> reporter: donald trump was not there, but his presence loomed large because the argument today ry centered on one word. you mentioned it in your opening. reputation. reputation was the name of the game today. the second part of the day really focussed on what will it cost to restore e. jean carroll's reputation? what

in atlanta, georgia, two brave black women, mother and daughter , ruby freeman and shaye moss, had theirives offended just for doing their jobs. menacing calls. death threats forcing them to literally flee their homes. those pushing the big lie had a conspiracy theory among conspiracy that outweighs them all. but here's the fact. there is where we don't have facts. there are no facts, no proof or evidence. that is why time and again they lost in every court of law. they challenge the results, 60 losses in the courts of america. there is one thing they don't have. they don't have respect for the 81 million people who voted the other way and voted for my candidacy. [applause] they voted to end the presidency. in their world, these americans that is not america. in america, we all count. in america, we witness and serve all those who in fact participate, and losers are taught to concede when they lose. andy is a loser. [cheers and applause] [laughter] president biden: we all came together to put the country before ourselves. their lives that led to the january 6 are part of a broader attack

in atlanta georgia, a brave black mother and their daughter ruby freeman and shay moss were doing their jobs as election workers until donald trump and his mega followers targeted to threaten memo forcing them from their homes and unleashing on them. trumps personal lawyer, rudy giuliani was hit with a $148 million judgment for cruelty and defamation that he inflicted against them. other state and local elected rituals across the country faced similar personal attacks. in addition, fox news agreed to pay a record eight to $780 million for the lies that they told about voter fraud. let's be clear about the 2020 election, trump exhausted every legal avenue available to him to overturn the election, everyone. the legal path just took trump back to the truth. i won the election and he was the loser. >> knowing how his mind works, he had one act left, one desperate act available violence of january 6th. since that day more than 1200 people have been charged for assaulting the capital, over 900 have been convicted or pled guilty, collectively to date they have been sentenced to more than 840

one option that we can see that is one that ruby freeman and shaye moss have undertaken, but, remember, they sued successfully rudy giuliani for his defamation of them in the d.c. federal court before beryl howell and they made a motion because there was this continuing denigration. judge kaplan said you only have a certain right to free speech. you can't say everything at any time. there's the famous example of you can't shout fire in a crowded movie theater. so, you have limited -- you have rights and they're strong but they're limited. i just want to note something katie was referencing, which is, you know, today we're seeing the second defamation trial of e. jean carroll where she has said in closing, yes, this is a defamation case. it is about a sexual assaulter who has defamed her. don't forget what is the root of this and happens to be on the same day that the department of justice issued a report fairly devastating report with respect to the andrew cuomo administration, so, one, obviously this kind of behavior, one is sexual harassment, but democrats and republicans, but it is

obviously know what happened with rudy giuliani where in that case, the jurors awarded shaye moss and ruby freemanney than they were asking for for punitive damages and to send a message. these jurors might have the same idea after they hear all of the evidence. >> one of donald trump's lawyers has withdrawn. is that a big deal? >> it's a huge deal. a big loss for the former president. he was the best trial lawyer on trump's team. he's represented sean hannity, alex rodriguez, asap rocky. we don't know why he's no longer representing trump. when a lawyer withdraws from a criminal case, the judge has to approve it, but the information hasn't been made public. what has been reported is that he advised trump not to take the stand in the first defamation trial with jean carroll. trump later said he regretted not taking the stand. he wants to take the stand now so maybe that was the issue between trump. but it's a big loss. >> reading the tea leaves. paul, thank you very much. and coming up, what effect governor snunu is having on the new hampshire primary? did he inadvertently help donald trump and wh

witness, who also testified in the rudy giuliani case, in which he was forced to pay huge damages to ruby freemant? >> that's right, she was -- in e. jean's first case to. she was basically testifying to what it would take to restore e. jean's reputation. so putting aside what damages e. jean might be owed for her emotional harm, and what punitive damage the jury awards specifically to punish donald trump. just, what would it cost if you wanted to mount what she calls a reputation restoration campaign. she estimates it would cost between ten and $12 million. the thing that i thought was most interesting was that trump's lawyers were sort of nibbling around the edges of that report, but they never found fault with the actual numbers. they don't have a damages expert of their own, in fact. so they were trying to do is poke little holes in it here and they're, asking her, did you consider how much money e. jean carroll made? did you consider how her reputation has improved since? things like that, as if to insinuate, we are not even going to try to back away at these numbers, because our position is

rudy giuliani, $148 for defaming ruby freeman and shaye moss., after the $83 million and of course if he ends up paying some $300 million to the state of new york, if he responds to that by declaring bankruptcy, which he's done multiple times, roberta kaplan did talk about that, four times he's declared bankruptcy. i don't know if people would think he was such a rich and important guy if they knew how many times he was bankrupt, what does it do for the politics of donald trump if he's suddenly he's the bankrupt not quite billionaire. >> he was bankrupt in the past and came back to win and win again and again. this time is so public, and people understand what's going on, joy. right now, the win has turned into a big l, loser. and he is so harsh on this brand. i am donald trump. i'm a winner. this is a huge loss, after that first e. jean carroll trial, he tried to make it out to be a joke, is this what they're trying to get me on, and some of his followers believed it. now, this sends a powerful blow. his politics are still there. but he's hobbl

ruby freeman and shaye moss move into rudy's manhattan mansion. i'm ready for it. -- but we don't always have to wait for elected leaders to come -- people are not waiting and they're using the courts to try to get justice. and it's been one of the most inspiring of the trump era to see how the courts have held and such -- >> do you have the kind of optimism for donald trump's legal challenges next year? >> donald trump has seven trials. we just talked about the big. for jack smith january 6th trial, that's good history's most important case for us brightens, most german. face donald trump is -- >> the pyramid scheme trial, a.g. carroll trial mark too, is going to be aggressive here. i think it's because, like henry castor will have a better year than donald trump in 2024? >> tara, what do you think? >> it's going to be a year in which i think you'll need to be able to get a lot of voters out, going to be enforced by all the chaos. that's happening because the flight from that right, a lot of disinformation, you're going to hear culture wars, peop

what rudy giuliani brought forward in terms of his allegations against ruby freeman, for example, otherhan the fact that they were straight-up lies, as he admitted, there was no data behind his allegations. it was an interpretation of the video. i had nothing to do with that. >> what was the reaction when you would repeat on a rolling basis, there's no fraud here, no fraud in arizona, no fraud in michigan, as you would tell them that, what was the campaign's reaction? >> as the first couple of claims they asked me to look at, the question was, can you tell me if this is right? help us understand? by the end, every claim i was given was prefaced with, tell me why this one is wrong. >> okay. so washington post did something similar. they look to the voter fraud things that were happening in republican states, texas, florida, ohio, virginia, arkansas, georgirand a period in which tens ofuring millions of votes were cast. 76% of those defendants whose race or ethnicity could be identified for black or hispanic, while white people constituted 24% of those prosecuted for something like errors

we know about shaye moss and ruby freeman. and we know about many others around the country who feared for their lives. i remember that day when gabe sterling from georgia went to the front of the mic and said, you're gonna get somebody killed. people have asked whether if trump is reelected, we will see political violence. we are already seeing political violence. these threats are very, very serious indeed. swatting had a result in really terrible, accidental killings. and we need to be aware that this is part of trump's brand, the menace, the threat of violence. and his followers, this is why what he has done is so irresponsible, his followers are taking up that mantle. and this is very, very dangerous indeed. we've heard threats called into the colorado supreme court. they have had to fortify as well. we are already in that period. and it raises the stakes because it shows us that this is all, this door has already been open. and if trump is allowed to ascend to the most powerful position in this country and perhaps the wo

at the precinct level, ruby freeman and shaye moss defended the election.we have got a defendant at the state level where rad raffensperger, at least last time did the right thing. we have a defendant on january 6 again where vice president pence withstood incredible pressure to step outside of his constitutional role and declared donald trump the winner. we are going to have to try and mobilize on a cross partisan basis, everybody who supports constitutional democracy to defend the constitution. there you go. [indiscernible] thank you for those questions. number one, the vast majority of american people believe in democratic institutions and believe in free and fair elections. it is only authoritarian parties which take the position that they can't lose an election, and if they do come the election was contaminated. that is a hallmark of fascist political party they do not accept the results of free and fair elections that do not go their way. the vast majority of americans stand on that side. joe biden won by more than 7 million votes. there are millions

americans, people that never expected to be in his crosshairs, have found themselves, people like ruby freemanand shaye moss, for example. so i think on one hand exulting the jury and the other hand telling them you should stay silent about your experience, those aren't contradictory. you are so important that i'm going to take steps to protect you in the exercise of this fundamental american duty. >> face and lisa, thank you for your expertise on this. we really appreciate it. and of course the question comes up about will donald trump actually pay the $83. 3 million verdict e. jean carroll, and if he does, when? we'll get the answer to those questions, mixed with new york times investigative reporter suzanne craig. stay with us. covid-19? i'm not waiting. if it's covid, paxlovid. paxlovid is an oral treatment for adults with mild-to-moderate covid-19 and a high-risk factor for it becoming severe. it does not prevent covid-19. my symptoms are mild now, but i'm not risking it. if it's covid, paxlovid. paxlovid must be taken within the first five days of symptoms, and helps stop the virus from

think about ruby freeman and shaye moss, who literally cannot go home. so many people have, people literally have been begging for accountability, and frankly, if it wasn't for the january six committee, we probably wouldn't even be seeing all of donald trump and his accountability. >> that's exactly the point. so, to that end, i want to put up, if we could, the polling that's showing that 85% of americans are concerned about this. so, we see, to your point, that energy kind of generating itself out there, we're very concerned or somewhat concerned about what's happening. but now, the question becomes, i think, is this thing ramps up, we're going to see this from this president, former president. he's already laying out, when a man tells you he wants to be somebody's retribution, and he wants to be a dictator, the natural thing that flows from that if he doesn't get his way, if he doesn't like the outcome or the result of things, is going to be violence. so, the question is, how do we as citizens cowherd ourselves against that? how do we protect each oth

in that case where he was being sued by shaye moss and ruby freeman, they asked for a certain amount of money in punitive damages, the jury came back with literally tens of millions of dollars more than the plaintiffs were asking for. trump could be liable for way more than the 10 million in punitive damages and, again, even in this brief moment on the stand, if he comes across as not only unrepentant but defiant, the jury is going to take that into account. >> in total, according to our producer on the scene, the former president of the united states took the stand for just three minutes. again, what do jurors make of this. let me go back to yasmin vossoughian. remind us about this jury, and i should say, the judge said the evidence in this case is concluded. >> reporter: yeah. >> so who are the jurors that are going to be considering this? >> reporter: all of that anticipation, and three minutes of testimony from the former president. we didn't hear a lot from him. resuming court, by the way, tomorrow morning at 9:30 in the morning for closing arguments, and then the jury will go i

verdict of $148 million against rudolph giuliani for the defamation of two georgia election workers, ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss. donald trump could be facing court orders to pay a billion dollars or more in the next few years. and those washington, d.c., jurors are going to get to hear donald trump saying in depositions that he's worth ten billion dollars. those jurors are gonna hear statements from donald trump that he's worth much more money and his accounting of his assets show. and so, the 90 million, the 100 million, depending on exactly when she collects it, that e. jean carroll is now on our way to collecting from donald trump could just be the beginning of donald trump's collapse into bankruptcy because of all the willful and stupid ways donald trump has broken the law. the law that e. jean carroll used to crush donald trump in court to humiliate him, to the point where he stopped out of the courtroom during final arguments is the oldest law that donald trump has found himself subject to. before there was a united states of america, defamation was against the law in this par

giuliani to try to challenge the $148 million in damages that he owes georgia election workers ruby freeman and shaye moss for publicly and repeatedly defending them. the exemption does not mean that mr. giuliani can challenge the fact that he defamed them. that has been settled in court. it just means he can apply to challenge the cash amount he owes in damages. the fact that this is considered a victory for rudy giuliani shows how much his fortunes have changed, both literally and figuratively. the speed of justice in this country is sometimes frustratingly, aggravating glee slow. but justice does come. late last night we got the news that the justice department is seeking a six month prison sentence, and a 200,000 dollar fine for trump white house advisor pete navarro for contempt of congress. mr. navarro was a mainstay on fox news, and he put out a report, known literally as the navarro report, alleging widespread election fraud in six battleground states, despite having no real evidence, mostly because none actually exists. that report then became the basis of a plan, laid out by navar

in atlanta, georgia, a brave black mother and her daughter, ruby freeman and shaye moss were doing theirs as election workers, until donald trump and his maga followers threatened them, forcing them from their homes, and unleashing racist vitriol on them. trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, who was just hit with a $148 million judgment for cruelty and defamation that he inflicted against them. other state and local elected officials across the country faced similar personal attacks. in addition, fox news agreed to pay a record $787 million for the lies they told about voter fraud. let's be clear about the 2020 election. trump exhausted every legal avenue available to him to overturn the election. every one. but the legal path just took trump back to the truth. that i had won the election and he was a loser [ cheering and applause ] well, knowing how his mind works now, he had one act left. one desperate act available to him. the violence of january 6th. 1,200 people have been charged with their assault on the capitol. nearly 900 of them have been convicted or pled guilty. collectivel

americans, people that never expected to be in his crosshairs, have found themselves, people like ruby freemanand shaye moss, for example. so i think on one hand exulting the jury and the other hand telling them you should stay silent about your experience, those aren't contradictory. you are so important that i'm going to take steps to protect you in the exercise of this fundamental american duty. >> face and lisa, thank you for your expertise on this. we really appreciate it. and of course the question comes up about will donald trump actually pay the $83.3 million verdict e. jean carroll, and if he does, when? we'll get the answer to those questions, mixed with new york times investigative reporter suzanne craig. stay with us. h us baby: liberty. did you hear that? ty just said her first word. can you say “mama”? baby: liberty. can you say “auntie”? baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean? jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ downy unstopabl

atlanta, georgia, two brave black women, mother and daughter, ruby freeman and shaye moss had their livesing their jobs. menacing calls, death threats, forcing them to literally flee their homes. those pushing the big lie have a conspiracy theory that outweighs them all. here is the fact. there is where we don't have facts -- their theory has no facts, no proof, no evidence. that's why time and again they lost in every court of law and challenged 60 losses in courts of america. they don't have respect for the 81 million people who voted the other way, voted for my candidacy and voted to end the presidency. in their world these americans, including you, don't count. that's not the real world. that's not democracy. that's not america. in america we all count. in america we witness to serve all those who, in fact, participate, and losers are taught to concede when they lose. he's a loser. [ cheers and applause ] we all came together. the lies that led to january 6th are part of a broader attack on america today that we all have seen before, the same movement that the mob was trying to not on

and a way to think about this is when ruby freeman and shane moss sued rudy giuliani last month.he pale, there is a way for the courts to reduce it. here, i think it would be very hard for donald trump to win that kind of argument. obviously, we have to see what the number is, but it is because the issue is, you usually do not have the person who has defamed the plaintiff continuing to do it. so you have continuing harm, and the point of punitive damages is to get the person to stop, to punish them for their behavior. and if they are continuing to be so recalcitrant it becomes very hard for that person to say, reduce the award. >>> coming up, congress avoids a government shutdown passing a stopgaps ending measure, but it's only short-term fix. we will have the timeline for when this round of funding runs out. straight ahead on morning joe. . at bombas, we're obsessed with comfort. softness. quality. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) with the push of a

jean carroll but was an expert for ruby freeman in their own defamation case against rudy giuliani.with an award of damages in the amount of $148 million. e. jean carroll's lawyers have similarly invited this jury to award very significant punitive damages. they haven't yet quantified what that should look like, but they want to make donald trump think twice about further defaming e. jean carroll. they have asked the jury to consider this question. how much will it cost to make him stop? earlier today, our colleague, chris jansing said, at least i heard that on "morning joe," those aren't my words. those are the words of plaintiff's lawyers yesterday, and i expect we'll hear it again when they close. how much will it take to make him stop? my guess is hundreds of millions of dollars will be their answer. >> right, harry, i was about to say, that's the million dollar question, and lisa already preemptively corrected me. it's the hundred million dollar question. trump knew what he was doing. today, for him, was about making this a show about making this a spectacle, the entire back-an

a damages expert, the same one that was used in her first trial, the same one that was used in ruby freeman and shea moss' defamation trial against rudy giuliani that resulted in a $148 million verdict against him -- that same damages expert will be testifying in this trial. >> andrew, i see you nodding. what's going through your brain right now? >> i think there's no way you can give a better legal explanation than katie just gave. i think you've heard in the opening arguments already this idea that the damages need to be higher, not just because the former president is continuing to make the statements -- you're trying with punitive damages to deter him, so you can use all his current conduct. they actually talked this morning to the jury and this afternoon about his current statements. but also, as katie said, the fact that when he first started making these statements, he was the president of the united states. so it had added weight and the defamation is that much stronger. that's the argue being made to the jury. and just to go back to this idea of what's happening in the courtroom to

you look at ruby freeman and these election works that raise their hand for public service. the fact that so many of them are personally targeted is really, really discouraging. it reflects what i think is the fundamental divide in this country. that's distrusted institutions versus people that believe and support government, that believe and support media science, higher education. there's a fundamental breach between the system generally works for their benefit. people that really don't. people that are cynical about the system. unfsht fortunately that is taking the forl not just of an opinion, but actionable the threats in violence. that's really discouraging. >> i take a note of caution to heart. it's echoed in georgia and lxs official with the office posted this on social media. do not jump to conclusions as to who is responsible. there will be chaos agents sewing discord for 2024. they want the to increase tensions. don't let them. your thoughts? >> that's right. so is tim. there are any number of actors, whether they are domestic actors. i'm certain that russian intel

methodically investigating the same kinds of threats against average, everyday georgians, people like ruby freemanbombarded with the same kinds of threats who had to go into hiding, had to change their experiences. so it was -- it became intensely personal for her, the idea that someone who is leading an investigation in all of this and becomes a victim of the same kind of criminal activity she was investigating, it's extraordinary. >> there is so much that was unearthed in this book, one source told about a plot sidney powell helped engineer, you write the idea was to tap ex-intel operatives who would break into election offices in swing sfats and seize dominion voting machines and servers so they could prove the equipment had been hacked by foreign powers. the operatives would need hunting licenses in order to fulfill their mission. hunting licenses? what in the world were they talking about? powell chimed in, pardons, she said, from president trump. i need six to eight pardons, but these weren't ordinary pardons, they would be preemptive pardons, she explained, an advance permission slip from t

jean carroll's name in his mouth as ruby freeman and shaye moss' lawyers have done. that's not what i've understood e. jean carroll's attorneys are going to do. they want to find an award that makes him think twice about continuing this behavior. how much is it going to take to make him shut up? that's a rougher version of the question her lawyer asked yesterday. >> a lot apparently because he's been punished for it, and he continues to do it day in and day out. >> the difference between $5 million and silence, willie, is probably a big goal and that's what e. jean carroll's lawyers are trying to find out. >> he will be back there today. former litigator, legal analyst lisa rubin, thanks as always. mika? >> thank you, lisa. coming up, tensions are growing in the middle east as the u.s. targets iranian-backed houthi militants in yemen. for the third time in a week raising concerns about a broader regional war. we'll tell you what new actions the biden administration plans on taking against the group. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ ♪ charlotte! charl! every day ca

including today, during the trial, which is exactly sort of what rudy giuliani did with respect to ruby freeman, highly respected, is a no nonsense judge. the kinds of antics we have seen donald trump engage in, in the past, is simply not going to be tolerated here. this judge runs an extremely tight ship. the other thing i would point out, this is going to be a very fast trial because it is just about damages. yes, donald trump may testify next monday, but that would be the very last thing before it goes to the jury. >> andrew, it seems that we are surrounded by a sad reality and the sad reality is that a lot of sensible people, we don't know how many, but a lot of sensible people seem to view any prosecution now of donald trump as a persecution of donald trump. and he's capitalized on that politically. so, in terms of the pace of the trial going on now, when will the trial end, do you think? will it end next monday? and the result of the trial, the imposition of a fine or whatever it is that the judge imposes, the federal judge, it is a federal court, which is different than a state court, ca