in fact, rudy giuliani told us today that he hasn't heard back from mueller in three weeks. he's getting nothing here. so rudy's just trying to make noise. and i will note, i continue to be fascinated by the fact that this is the friday before labor day. >> yeah. >> and we're sitting here. and you have the patten guilty plea but you don't have something major. >> it's only 9:15. >> i don't think the mueller team is working past 9:17, but do you think they're -- >> rudy is really getting ahead of things. where he is with the mueller team is not, oh, the report's coming. it's is your client going to come in and talk to us or not, right? so they still have to close that loop. then they have to decide if they're going to subpoena the president or not. then there will be some back and forth over that and potential litigation. so this idea that mueller is about to release a report that giuliani has to be in d.c. to scramble and write a response to seems way ahead of where we are in the process. >> it's fantasy, and jennifer's right. it is an attempt at p.r. but i find it interestin

first of all, what is rudy giuliani referring to?is something he may have learned during the joint -- because they have a joint defense agreement of some sort? >> the joint defense agreement has to be over at this point if he's cooperating. and congressman schiff correctly pointed out, you can't control what you have. manafort is on one side, he says one thing, on the other side he says something else. i didn't know how you can say the deal is limited. the deal as i understand it is that manafort will cooperate with anything that the special counsel asks about. there are no limits. this wasn't a deal that we're only going to talk about so-and-so, but we're not going to talk about trump or the trump tower meeting, obviously one of the first questions they're going to ask him, is did donald trump's son know about the subject of the meeting before it occurred in order to put pressure on donald trump jr. in order to put pressure on president trump. so, look, i understand why rudy giuliani, who's a good lawyer wants to put this in the mos

rudy giuliani put out a statement from the president. he actually out two statements.e first one i want to . sh once again an investigation has concluded with a plea having nothing to do with president trump or the trump campaign, the on the president did nothing wrong and paul manafort will tell the truth. and the paul manafort will tell the truth was not included. you don't think thawas an accident? >> i don't think this was an accident. remember, someone who was hired really to work with the press and be this person who's is spokesperson for the legal team. so you have the idea they're very worried about what paul manafort might say, and paul manafort has this deal that he will talk about anything that the government said, so if he tells the truth, that cannot just go to obstruction of justice orthe russia collusion, but it goes to the fina ials. the faat the president and paul manafort had some sort of financial dealings that get them in trouble is almost a bigger story sometimes than the russian collusion. because i get a sense in talking to rudy giuliani they're

it seems clear that rudy giuliani and his team were duped too. they did not see it coming. here counsel mya wiley. what do you make of rudy giuliani touting a joint defense agreement this past week which we know was happening at the very time paul manafort was in the meetings, not jointly defending trump but cutting a deal with his nemesis, bob mueller. >> i have so many questions about how rudy giuliani has been approaching this from the beginning. he's made so many mistakes in his representation of trump in public. whether it's unfortunate statements about how he has described transactions. he's been a mess. i wonder if they have a written agreement because it's standard operating procedure to write the agreement down. normally you would include provisions about how the agreement could be dissolved and it would be common practice to dissolve the agreement if you're going to start. if one party was going to start cooperating. was it written? was he relying on an informal and verbal agreement which every one would say you don't do? i don't know. it's impossible know. he sho

same time when rudy giuliani has also said that they're going to put out a competing report to try tog that comes out in the mueller attempt. the bottom line is that what we're seeing from rudy giuliani, president trump, what we're seeing from other supporters of the spth thpresident is they're to create white noise, doubt and sow doubt in the minds of everyone watching television right now and people across the country that no matter what comes out in this report president trump is innocent and transparent how they're doing it. >> no question. attack the evidence, the witnesses, the report. all right. thanks very much. stick around. sk coming up, president trump's new attack on attorney general jeff sessions. behr premium plus, 'behr' through it all with a top rated paint at a great price. right now, get incredible savings on behr, exclusively at the home depot. and i don't add up the years. but what i do count on is boost®. delicious boost® high protein nuritional drink now has 33% more protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals boost® high protein. be up for life. boost

rudy giuliani going on tv and saying that he is going to chime in and not allow the mueller report to become public, frankly, rudy is the president's personal lawyer. i don't believe it's up to him to decide what happens with the mueller report. and in a matter like this, which has to do with the russians' attack on our elections and ultimately the conclusions drawn by mueller after an exhaustive investigation into all of the parties involved, it's hard to believe that the american people would allow something like that to remain hidden in secrecy. the secrecy -- >> what would -- the american people may want to see it, but what will congress do? do you trust your republican colleagues to make sure the american people see that report? the fact is, you are a minority party. that could change in november, but it may not. >> well, i'm only a minority party. i am in the majority. in fact, i am with 100% of my colleagues in congress who swore to uphold the constitution. that's not a partisan issue. that's what we all did. sadly, jim, and i know we've talked about this before, sadly, for too

rudy giuliani talked about this plea deal today. take a listen to this. >> nothing to do with the president, nothing to do with collusion, everything to do with a lobbyist who acted improperly who the president doesn't know. so far every indictment is unrelated to the president. we went through an entire manafort trial, and there wasn't a single mention of the president. >> this is related directly to the inauguration. >> not is the president. >> giuliani here saying this has nothing to do with the president. when you're listening to the point that ken made earlier, which is that we don't know why these men pay $50,000 to attend the inauguration. were they just paying to party it up with d.c. politicians or were they coming to try to get access to incoming administration so they could ultimately shape policy and have some kind of influence. how is it possible rudy giuliani makes that kind of statement when we don't know the answer to why these two men paid $50,000. >> ayman, first of all, the mayor is a pretty good lawyer. he's goin

as for the president's team, rudy giuliani, weighed in on the latest conviction, what did he say? >> that's right. what rudy giuliani basically called attention to the fact that there is no mention of donald trump in this plea deal. take a listen to what he had to say. >> it turned out to be this irrelevant indictment where mueller has turned into the private prosecutor. what does it have to do with president trump? not a single thing. had nothing to do with collusion and some guy who donated to the inauguration? my goodness, 500,000 people donated to president trump. the prosecutor is going to do it. >> rudy giuliani can minimize this plea deal today but the fact is this is the first time we are seeing on paper that the prosecutors have been examining any foreign money that went into the trump's inauguration. we know from our previous reporting that there were witnesses who were asked of russian money, ukrainian money that made its way into the campaign and the inauguration. it is something we know and very much of the focus of mueller and his investigators. it is a matter of tim

in terms of what rudy giuliani is saying about this will have nothing to do with the campaign. this will have nothing to do with trump. i suppose he's suggesting none of this cooperation. is there any reason to think there's anything to what rudy giuliani is saying there? >> not really. maybe that's his point. the charges to which mr. manafort plead gld op their face have nothing to do with the president. that is a complete misreading of the situation that manafort is in and the plea agreement that he signed. the plea agreement requires him to testify truthfully against every one about anything. there are no limits. for mr. rudy giuliani to say he knows what that cooperation is going to look like and who it will implicate is just completely false. >> ken star said he doesn't think there would have been a deal unless there's strong assurance that manafort had something to offer them. let's listen to that. >> i would say this, it's very likely that paul manafort has indicated that he can provide very helpful information, useful information to get to the bottom of what bob mueller

again, that's a rudy giuliani, the president's attorney here. everything that mueller has been charged -- everything he's charged with deals with manafort's work as a non-registered lobbyist or a business operative. >> the trials last month in virginia.with more of the tax fraud issue, the charges he was facing before he reached a plea agreement this week.with the foreign lobbying activity. sarah sanders and rudy giuliani are right that it doesn't technically deal with the trump campaign and the activities of the president himself. you can't ignore the specter of the russia probe just moving elsewhere all of this as manafort went to trial last month announced developments happen this week. you know from our reporting at the post that particularly last month if there was cable to cable, wall-to-wall coverage on cable tv about this trial we know the president was very frustrated about what was happening. the reporting shows that the white house on friday the mood seemed a little oddly calm, a little quiet. perhaps people saw this development comin

seems to me rudy giuliani and the president's team is drawing a line. that happened in the campaign. stuff that didn't. >> exactly. robert mueller has signalled he wants to ask president trump about things after he was elected, which i think giuliani is holding on to. >> the firing of james comey, for example. >> exactly. it would lead to obstruction of justice charges, if that were to happen. what's interesting about this is the bets the white house is making and trump's legal team is making. according to sources close to them, they said, they don't have a strategy past the pr bullying tactic againstbetting he's not to go through a months long fight against president trump. i think all signs point, yeah. >> it feels they're saying the collusion charge, they're getting softer on that because it is not a criminal charge. obstruction truly is. >> frank, jump in here. then i have another question for you. >> i was going to say, there is another gift you get when you press the subpoena issue, which is, you may get a very strong glimpse of how the courts wil

what do you make of rudy giuliani's posture here? is it all from a public relations standpoint?o it? >> paul is 100% right, all it is is a defense lawyer posturing, trying to put pressure on the prosecutor. i'm sort of surprised about this, maybe he's doing it for the client and to make the client happy, that happens sometimes. but in terms of bob mueller, let me tell, we're dealing with a former vietnam vet who was wounded in action, who got the -- who was awarded the purple heart. he has been a united states attorney. he has been a chief of the criminal division. that guy's been through it. and he's not going to be influenced one way or the other by rudy giuliani saying i want this thing finished on this day or else. that's just -- it's frankly kind of silly. >> and paul, it occurs to me as well, this question of what will happen between now and november, one thing is already on the calendar, correct, the paul manafort trial. >> you know, steve, he's got a long -- mueller's got a long things-to-do list. one is to get paul manafort convicted in that d.c. jury trial that happens

rudy giuliani is his lawyer.ping up rudy giuliani and the well-lauded moment of 9/11 certainly helps the president. >> those were the two graphs, the poetry graphs from the speech, they needed to be read as is off the teleprompter. he succeeded. there is so much to take in there. the fact we can hear every breath has to do with the microphones on a long gooseneck because his years as a performer have taught him vocal control. that's why his rallies sound different. that's why he sounds different. there's something i want to talk about and that's empathy. that comes into play certainly on a day like today, one day every year. and it also comes into play that it always strikes me what presidents have to do in hurricanes and natural disasters, it's more about empathy than fema. >> it is, really. there is that sort of -- it's performance but it has to be performance that's informed by real feeling, i think. and frankly, about donald trump, you have to wonder whether that feeling is there. he's not a very empathetic p

the president's lawyer rudy giuliani issued a

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you know, how much there is we don't know and, by the way, neither does rudy giuliani. what manafort is going to be in a position to tell the special counsel is something that they know because they've had proffers from him, but, you know, we are not in the position to know that and, you know, i do think -- i do think a bunch of people are kind of getting ahead of their skis and assuming that manafort holds the keys to all the kingdoms. i don't know that and i am not going to sit here and sort of pretend that. on the other hand if you are bob mueller and, you know, you have prosecuted paul manafort very aggressively for, you know, across two jurisdictions, two cases for more than a year now or almost a year now and you are presumably doing it because in addition to the egregious criminal conduct you actually want to talk to him and want him in a cooperative posture. now he has him in a cooperative posture and that's presumably because the special counsel has questions that he thinks paul manafort is in a position to shed light on so that the fact that we have reached th

day 595 of the trump administration and the president's lawyer, rudy giuliani, told the associated press tonight that president trump will not answer robert mueller's questions in writing or in person on the subject of obstruction of justice. but earlier tonight, giuliani told nbc news obstruction >>> well, good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. day 595 of the trump administration and the president's lawyer, rudy giuliani, told the associated press tonight that president trump will not answer robert mueller's questions in writing or in person on the subject of obstruction of justice. but earlier tonight, giuliani told nbc news obstruction questions are not ruled in or out. we'll have much more on this and an attempt to sort it out in just a moment. >>> but first, president trump just wrapped up a rally way out west far from the troubled atmosphere inside his own west wing. if it's thursday, it must be billings, montana, where tonight they heard the president attack the anonymous official from his own administration who wrote that surprising and scathing

. >>> also ahead, rudy giuliani's special russia report. why he's having trouble with it and now he's hoping it will counteract the mueller findings. >>> plus, the so-called document massacre. donald trump refused to release nearly 100 pages of the white house record. and it's raising lots of questions on the eve of his supreme court hearings. >>> and lindsey graham denies he invited ivanka and jared to senator mccain's funeral. how did they get in? >>> here's what's happening. new today, a top democrat says special counsel robert mueller's team is close to making a case for obstruction of justice, adding that impeachment proceedings against president trump should go on the back burner. >> i think the most important thing that the democrats could do is to allow bob mueller to complete his work. i think bob mueller's report will ultimately determine whether or not there are going to be additional steps taken against the president. bob mueller is focusing on several things right now. obvious obviously, he's gone after individuals and he's gon

earlier this year when rudy giuliani used the word stormtrooper to describe fbi agents, it definitelyls in my head because that is not the first time an attorney on behalf of donald trump used that exact term in that way to describe fbi agents. that was roy cohn in 1974, one of the most amazing things that happens in that case in 1974 is cohm and the trumps, of course, his clients fight back against prosecutors attempting to have one of them held in contempt for staging "gestapo" type investigation, stormtroopers, undercover agents raiding the offices of trump management in brooklyn. the kind of political rhetoric we're seeing right now, the charged politically incendiary language we've seen from the president, and rudy giuliani who is playing the cohn role is unprecedented. >> the developments when it happened in the same day that ma in a fort and michael cohen you interviewed another long time trump associate and write about where michael cohen's betrayal terrifies the president so much. why do you think it is? >> michael cohen played the role of roy cohn, a poor man's roy cohn, muc

rudy giuliani was asked about that.ake a listen to what he had to say. >> turned out to be this irrelevant indictment where i think mueller turned into the private prosecutor. what does this have to do with president trump? not a single thing. has nothing do with collusion. some guy donated to the inauguration. my goodness, 500,000 donated to president trump. >> i think rudy giuliani answered his own point there, which is what does this have to do with president trump? it was the trump inauguration. there's the link right there. bob mueller, yes, is going after things when you're talking about such high level questions like obstruction and collusion with russians, can look small, but actually i think it's just being methodical. he is deep in a complicated investigation and he is pulling out bit players. he is charging them when they lie to him. he is charging them for things like fare violations that don't get prosecuted. but all indications are that he is moving towards something bigger. that doesn't necessarily mean a

you saw this in a statement put out by former new york city mayor rudy giuliani in terms of how they were able to walk back statements in which they said that manafort was going to tell the truth. he ended the day, now you have manafort, cohen, general flynn, all of whom have been saying, you know, in their own way that they're going to fully cooperate with bob mueller. >> those numbers are certainly rising. tessa, i want to go back to that tweet again. do you know of any -- that president trump is actively trying to shut down the investigation? >> that's something that trump has an idea that he's batted around for months. i think he can't be feeling good right now because, as his poll numbers are dropping, we're seeing mueller's approval ratings rise. from that tweet, you can see that he thinks or knows that that might be related. and he and his lawyer, rudy giuliani, have been waging a pr war, basically, against mueller's team for months. trying to undercut public confidence in the investigation before any final report comes out. now that he sees that manafort is cooperating and ha

you see lanny davis tweeting, rudy giuliani, the president all these people tweeting.t hear from is robert mueller. i don't know we'll get the fruit of what these conversations bore until after midterms. i don't know they'll have a lot of implications on where we go. it's interesting to point out you talk about the a.g. here. i think once tisch james becomes the attorney general, she's made it clear she'll be looking deep into this president's finances an his business relations here. you have attorneys general in florida and d.c. looking into his dealings. i think at every level there will be -- >> and that's part of the proof. all those state investigations are part of the proof. if you're looking at the trump kids, for example -- >> exactly. >> -- and the president cannot pardon them. but real quick to tiffany's question about the cooperation, he could still get a cooperation agreement. that's possible. the southern district was not interested in a cooperation agreement with him because of their nary low slice of the investigation. he had nothing on that. but if muel

rudy giuliani had given mueller an unofficial timeline. he said mueller needed to file his report, come to his conclusions by labor day, tomorrow, in order to not interfere with d.o.j. policy. does it look like mueller is ready to wrap things up? >> yeah. he had done that. i agree with kelly that rudy giuliani has not been a very effective advocate for trump. he had proffered this deadline. he is totally wrong. that is not the d.o.j. policy at all and not even a guideline. i think it doesn't look as though he will wrap it up. i think it back fires because it means over the next couple of months that the cries of wrap it up will be much harder for giuliani and trump to make. when that period is over, of course, the house either will or will have not flipped. that will really effect the probe in one way or another. the main point, giuliani's claim it was all wet from the start and was just his attempt to try to influence the public. >> thank you both for being with us. >> thanks. have a great night. >>> legal limbo on the texas/mexico border

rudy giuliani.uliani's comments a day or so for them to be ripe or rescinded for who he reportedly speaks. >> what he said is the president won't answer any questions in person or in writing and not only of obstruction of justice and russia collusion. if the president does try to assert that and rudy giuliani is not making this up, how do you think that gets results and settled? >> the mueller team will have to decide whether they want to subpoena the president or proceed without his information. you know rachel if the president is not interviewed or telling special counsel he'll not subject himself to an interview and report the issues without his interview, he will pan his report. we are seeing him doing that right now with the bob woodward's book. the best thing that counsels can do is doing a great job and given all the due process in the world is to subpoena him and show that they're not going to treat him any differently. congressman eric swallow. thank you for being here. when it comes to str

rudy giuliani says that the plea deal has nothing to do with president trump. >> it turned out to be an irrelevant indictment where i think mueller has turned into the private prosecutor. what does it have todowith president trump? not a single thing. some guy donated to the inauguration? my goodness, there are about 500,000 people who donated. every time they get a speeding ticket, the specific prosecutor will do it. >> reporter: and patten has agreed to cooperate with mueller. evan perez, cnn, washington. >>> and still more questions and contradictions unfolding in the russian probe. in a court filing late friday, convicted former trump campaign adviser george papadopoulous contradicted jeff sessions' sworn testimony to congress. papadopoulous says in a march 2016 meeting, sessions and then candidate trump both apparently supported his proposal for a meeting with vladimir putin during the 2016 campaign. when sessions was asked about that meeting under oath, he said that he, quote, pushed back on the idea. papadopoulous' attorney requests that he be given probation instead of jail

but that is what rudy giuliani is trying to speak to. >> and absolutely, i think what rudy giuliani said which is to imt poli explicitly question the character of this investigation, whether it is political in nature, i think the house members and senators going into battles in november, that will be a line that you will see them promote and say, you know, if there is nothing there, why has that not come to the forefront. is this a political investigation. i do think that you will see republican s especially really latch on no that as a defense when they get questions from their opponents about dufrd's potential link to russia. >> and thank you all. >>> still ahead, a new low for president trump. details of a revealing new poll. and it was a celebration fit for a queen. after the break, al sharpton reflected on the secondoff for arena franklin. arena franklin ndoff for arena franklin. ndoff for arena franklin to most, he's phil mickelson, pro golfer. to me, he's, well, dad. so when his joint pain from psoriatic arthritis got really bad, it scared me. and what could that pain mean? joint

and you can say a lot of things about rudy giuliani. but through his career he has known how to manipulate the media, how to manipulate public perception, how to set a public relations trap for people. so the people who know him say don't count him out on that count, on managing public relations. >> jason, does this mean the prosecution here, mueller, is going to need a tape like they needed -- jaworski needed a tape against nixon? because i get the sense if you can say truth isn't truth, what you're really arguing is if you're willing to believe my side of the argument i'll say anything. >> they're going to need a lot more evidence than what we know of now. that's probably why they're taking as long as they need to take. unless you get a direct e-mail that says trump for sure, we can prove he knew about the meeting, unless you can get? some direct commentary from the president or an e-mail that confirms it, yeah, that's what mueller is going to need. but i think the problem sort of politically you hear from giuliani and a lot of these

betsy, i want to ask you about rudy giuliani. the two statements that he gave on this plea deal and the one that he took away, the line where he said that paul manafort will tell the truth. so why would he pull that? >> what we're hearing or what giuliani himself has said is that he and jay sekulow somehow got their wires crossed and there were technical difficulties as they were drafting these parallel statements and then subsequently giuliani had to withdraw this one line from the statement that he put out. that explanation may or may not be credible depending on your view of the credibility of rudy giuliani, but the important piece here is that it certainly appears the white house or the president's legal team took a big step back from essentially saying that they weren't worried about what information paul manafort might potentially be giving to mueller. that said though, they were certainly likely correct in that first statement when they said manafort would be telling the truth. when he is communicating with federal investi

you see a lot of rudy giuliani out there.e is florida white collar lawyers who came on board in may as part of the president's legal team. jane ras continue has been driving the legal work going on. she know as couple of people she is working with including robert mueller there is just a lot of phone calls and conference calls trying to come to some kind of deal on whether or not the presidents will answer questions from robert mueller. that is really one of the big things that is happening behind the scenes is trying to find a way where the president might answer questions from robert mueller as part of this investigation. >> where do the negotiations stand right now? >> they are closer than people realize. we will see very soon the president's legal team will get a set of questions, first round of questions from robert mueller. it will be written questions. if you looked at when the negotiations began, nobody would have thought that mueller would accept written answers. it is sort of a take home test from the president. eve

and won't allow others to depict me in that way. >> rudy giuliani the president's attorney had previously> lt man is an honest, honorable lawyer. >> after the secret tape leak. giuliani began singing a different tune about cohen on cnn. >> back against the wall he'll lie like crazy. he lied all his life. >> the dramatic and dangerous event in the saga of michael cohen so far. that day he glad handed his way into the federal courthouse in manhattan. not as a lawyer. but a defendant about to admit guilt. >> former private lawyer michael cohen accepted his own fate in a deal with prosecutors. pleading guilty to serious crimes inlewd colluding paying hush money to stormy daniels to keep her quiet before the election. >> stunning as it was. his admission of guilt wasn't the biggest bomb shell that day. >> the president himself of course is described as the person who directed cohen's crimes. that continues to be the most important fall out from the guilty plea. >> guilty to eight counts of financial crime. bank fraud and tax fraud. some of the crimes are connected to the stormy daniels hush mo

in his first statement reacting to today's development, donald trump lawyer, rudy giuliani saying an investigation concludesed with a plea having nothing to do with president trump or the trump campaign. the reason, the president did nothing wrong and paul manafort will tell the truth. minutes later rudy giuliani revised that statement and removed the language at the end that stated paul manafort will tell the truth. one way to read that is it could be an indication of the trump team is bracing for testimony for manafort detrimental to the president. he's become the fifth trump campaign associate to cooperate with the special counsel after pleading guilty to charges. that includes michael cohen who was been talking to the mueller team according to a new report from vanity fair out late today. joining me now is tom winter, investigations reporter for nbc news. barbara mcquacquaid. tom, let me start with you. just in terms of laying out the road forward for manafort, the guilty plea and what sounds like an open ended cooperation agreement. every question is on the table. he can't say i

rudy giuliani has been consistently inconsistent. it's absolutely stunning but no longer surprising. as a former federal prosecutor i can tell you this, while the mueller team would like to speak with the president, in fact, they'd like to speak with everyone who involved in this investigation, they don't have to. often in federal investigations we don't get to talk to the target of the investigation. he's abroad or he won't speak with us or invokes his fifth amendment privilege not to speak with us. so you can finish an investigation without speaking to the president. if bob mueller decides he wants to push the issue, regardless of what mr. giuliani says, he simply issue ace grand jury subpoena and litigates that. i don't know what he's thinking because he won't talk. he's a professional and that's the way professionals conduct themselves. >> all right. so i'm asked to -- i'm allowed to ask our lawyer in this case, what do you think about the possibility of what you just mentioned, a subpoena, knowing mueller and his work as much as

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david: the rudy giuliani team has put a package together discrediting the mueller investigation.o they present it to the public at large or another special investigator? >> i guess we'll have to wait and see what they include in it. i would think it would be for in mueller and his squad. but primarily for congress and the american people at large. i would hope before it gets that far, the president would declassify things like the fisa court decision which is so heavily redacted and the warrant applications and warrants themselves and the house committee memo that still had redactions tonight and the inspector general's report. we are waiting on the inspector general's report on the fisa abuses. i would expect that to be even more damning for mr. mueller's entire investigation as the one that just came out a few months ago. david: your superb book talks about how prosecutors do lie to push their case. the prosecutor we are dealing with in terms of mr. mueller is someone using a series of witnesses for his case that have serious problems, credibility problems on a personal level a

rudy giuliani of course is his lawyer. so pumping uppide giuliani and reminding the public of giuliani's, you know, moment and well-lauded moment during 9/11 certainly helps the president. >> eugene, that bit we just saw from pennsylvania, arguably the most presidential thing he did all day. those were the two graphs, the kind of nut graphs, the poetry graphs from the speech, they needed to be read as is off the teleprompter. he succeeded. there is so much to take in there. the fact we can hear every breath is due to the new microphones he's had fixed to all of the podiums on a long gooseneck because his years as a performer have taught him vocal control. that's why his rallies sound different. that's why he sounds different. there's something else i want to talk to you about, and that's empathy. that comes into play certainly on a day like today, one day every year. and it also comes to play -- it's always struck me what presidents have to do in hurricanes and natural disasters, it's more about empathy than fema. >> it is,

>> so having heard that from rudy giuliani and as i was saying earlier, what do you make of giuliani's comments? do you think that voters will look at this investigation differently if mueller doesn't meet the trump team's deadline? >> yeah. i think what giuliani is trying to do there is overstate what this rule says so that if there is any activity that occurs within the next 60 days he can point to it and say it's clearly politically motivated. but as joyce said, the policy is, number one, 60 days is not written anywhere. that is a word of mouth general term. and then the other thing is he says it relates to politically charged investigations. and that's not true either. it relates to individual elections as joyce pointed out. so the fact that trump himself is not on the ballot suggests to me that technically there is no violation whatsoever to making charges relating to the russia investigation. but to the extent that activity could have some impact on the midterm elections i think it is something that mueller will think about and discuss with his team. but if any charges come, you

jeffrey to been reporting that rudy giuliani pointed to a little known aspect of the agreement that trump's team truck with mueller. truck with mueller >> nice little disclosure from rudy. but, again, i guess the string that runs through john dowd and rudy giuliani is one neither claimed their client is innocent. two, both seem worried that their client has obstructed justice. and three, they both seem to admit in public statements that end up in the newspapers that their client will perjure himself. >> of course they have to fight the mueller report going public. because the information and the conclusions reached in that report will be devastating for this president, pratt president those around him and the presidency. it is very difficult to avoid the conclusion that the president deliberately committed obstruction of justice when he still addt it on twitter to recharacterize the justice department as the political arm of his presidency, rather than as an independent agency with a 200 plus year history of devotion to the rule of law. so rudy giuliani is worried with good reason. i'm not

and that's why manafort got that information, and all of a sudden right at that time rudy giuliani'schanged. but the thought that they are discussing the potential pardon for paul manafort or there are signals, there may not be a lot of legal recourse particularly if paul manafort is not cooperating against donald trump, and so donald trump is therefore not obviously and clearly pardoning someone who has incriminating information about him. but this is shocking and startling turn of events, if it is true that there is any discussion. and rudy giuliani's statement in a report today where he said that a guilty plea would not change the calculus for the president, a, means that they're thinking about it and perhaps thinking about it, and also, b, runs afoul of any rational reason that you would pardon someone if they're admitting their guilt. and let's not forget one more thing. tomorrow when manafort goes and enters a guilty plea, he has to admit to the crimes he's committing. that's going to be a significant event. >> so cath wrae, if you look at this it's very easy to see what trump

you keep seeing rudy giuliani shifting the goalposts. and it seems as if it's hard to figure out what his broad strategy is, if there is any, but what is interesting right now when we look at the time period we just entered, it says arbitrary 60-day window ahead of the mid terms. sop kind of seeing how rudy giuliani moves forward and sort of what, if he continues to sort of wave to this pr campaign, but i think one of the interesting things is they are really trying to present a narrative that they are trying to cooperate with the special counsel. they are trying to be open to different options when it comes to the interview. but i think when you talk to any legal expert, they will say the worst thing donald trump could do is sit down with the special counsel. you know, they really see it as just a situation where he would not be very successful at all. and i think -- recently i was speaking with a number of folks who worked with mueller over the years who really said that they believe he's not really banking on the interview with the pr

but rudy giuliani says he's hanging his head in shame because the justice department has found crimes and decided to prosecute those crimes. let's listen to this. >> my head hangs in shame for the department that i gave 16 years of my life to, the department of justice. i was the third ranking official in the department of justice, when i could proudly say it was the department of justice. and the only thing that can be done now is as relentless of an investigation of these people as they did to president trump. >> jill, your reaction to all of that. >> my reaction is that we have seen a march to the truth. we have seen cases build upon cases, and each person who has pled guilty has been from the trump team and has said, "i committed crimes." one of them said in court under oath that he committed a crime at the direction of the president himself. you can't get any better than that. and the fact that all of these people have pled guilty shows how carefully mueller has proceeded and how he has developed the evidence. all you have to do is read the information that manafort pled guilty t

what do you make of this latest reversal by rudy giuliani? >> completely ridiculous.back on one of the things bothering me the most. a lot of people saying legal training, people have been lawyers say i would never let my client go and talk to the -- that's absolutely true, if your client is a hopper on the corner. all right? if your client is some low-level petty criminal, of course you would never let him testify in front of an fbi -- right? fine. argue that your client deserves special treatment because he just happens to be the president of the united states and can't be indicted and shouldn't be subpoenaed and shouldn't even be charged. argue all that, it should be expected that the president of the united states is going to cooperate with an investigation. so they're trying to have it both ways. say the president is so special that he cannot be subpoenaed, but he's just like every other criminal defendant, in which case he should never talk to prosecutors. it's very annoying. the other thing about this back and forth about obstruction in particular, they seem to

>> rudy giuliani is irrelevant with respect to all the other matters in this investigation. rudy giuliani was hired to be a spinmaster to basically engage in public relations activity, not to engage in any serious lawyering whatsoever. i take nothing he says publicly of any value whatsoever as it bears on the investigation, period, full stop. >> i want to play one more clip. >> whether this is the most improbable strain of unlikely coincidences or whether this was an active conspiracy. the bottom line is manafort knows. will manafort cooperate? will he tell mueller all he knows or will he tell mueller only what he thinks mueller already knows? the reality is i think only he can tell us. >> i think a lot of the speculation is exactly what obviously mueller will say, how deep he will go, how broad he will go. and it also speaks to maybe what kind of witness he will be where gates was not exactly stellar for prosecutors. what do you think is the end game here for manafort himself? >> he's going to jail skpeand h going to jail for quite some time, in fact. i'm not sure i agree w

and just based on that exchange he had with rudy giuliani calling him a baby even when rudy giuliani was the only one defending him that weekend when the "access hollywood" tape dropped, loyalty is only one way for the president. >> it's unfair and an inaccurate attack because babies can't do television interviews. we've never had a baby on this show because they don't speak, john. if they don't speak, they're not good for interviews. what about the question natasha raises, such an intriguing question, i saw you vigorously nodding your head as you are known to do on this set from time to time, natasha raises an intelligent, interesting question. why would you lie to your own lawyer? >> he resents the dependence. the same thing goes on with the baby thing and then he goes off and he gives his intent. he goes off and he says in an interview that, yes, i fired him because of the investigation. he makes the -- he gives his intent in a public proceeding under tape. and you might ask why. and there are the comparison to shakespeare. shakespeare has this quote, guilt spills itself for fear