donald rumsfeld as secretary of defense. >> you know, rumsfeld got off to a very difficult start. he took the job really with a main mission to transform many t military. that was a mission basically handed to him by the president. and he went after it with characteristic zeal but also with characteristic aggressiveness to the point where within a few months there are already rumors that he would be possibly the first cabinet casualty. >> rose: right. >> but this established a pattern for rumsfeld through the rest of his term that are he had very difficult relations with the military, with congress, with others in the... the administration. >> rose: with secretary powell? >> with powell, with condoleezza rice. and so there was repeated speculation throughout hiss six years at various points that rumsfeld would not last. the arc, though, of his time as secretary does have a kind of up-and-down up-and-down quality. because just when it was being speculated in late summer of 2001 that he might have to go, 9/11 happened and the afghan war happened and rumsfeld's popularity suddenly su

the rumsfeld story is just a wonderful washington story. it's a... the way i tell it is, it's framed as a kind o tragedy. here'somebody who had a whole career both in government and business ogreat success. he was pickedo be secretary of defense r the second time in his life, the only one who had a second st at the job, he was an experienced washington player a skilled veteran of bureaucrat maneuvering and yet he got a number of things very wrong. he left office ver sparaged and he became such aolitical liability to h president that the presidenwas compelledto ask rumsfeldo go. >> rose: and how did rumsfeld take that? >> think he saw that as coming, you know? he left the day after...e announcehis resignation the daafterhe congresonal elections november, 2006. anas i write in the book, he and his wife yce had ancipated weeks before that if the republicans were to lose contl of congress, that rumsfeld would likely have to leave. what he didn't seem to know was exactly how it would be chorgraphed. thathe ax would fall onim immediatelafter the vote, the

so chene very quickly recoended rumsfeld to secretary of defense. bu met with rumsfeld once, they clicked and bush picke hi >> rose: and now make the assessment of donald rumeld as secretarof defense. >> you kw, rumsfeld got off to a very difficult start. he took the job really with a main mission to transform many t military. that was a mission basically handedo him by the president. and he went after it with characteristic zea but also with characteristic aggressiveness to the point where within a few months there are already rumorshat he would be possiy the first cabinet casualty. rose: right. >> b this established a pattern for rumsfeldhrough t rest ofis term that are head very difficult relations with the miliry, with congres withthers in the... the administrati. >> rose: with secretary powell? >> with powl, wh condoleezza ri. and so there was repeated speculation throughoutiss six years at various points that rumsfe would no last. the arc, though, of his time as secretary does have a kind of up-and-dn up-a-down quality. becaus justhen it wasei

is it possible the same transferrance thing happened here or just that cheney and rumsfeld wanted theecy they would gain from the laws giving them greater leeway for the military covert ops as opposed to the cia ops? >> well, i think rumsfeld was a bit of a control freak anyway and i think if he had his choice he would have found a way to absorb both the cia and maybe state department inside the pentagon anyway so the fact he decided he wanted this done inhouse isn't exactly shocking. is it? >> no. reporting here, james rice, they had special ops taking lead in afghanistan, wanted his own hit squads all over the globe, lines up with what you said. apparently he got them but he and cheney and bush still failed to get bin laden, still failed to knock out al qaeda, and killed two people in these murky and questionable circumstances. yet this was the administration of military competence? >> yes. this really says something doesn't it? it has to make you feel good when you realize all the things we missed doing, all the failures that took place. the biggest part of this for the american pe

people -- several people remembered both vice president cheney and secretary of defense rumsfeld and years earlier in a program they took part in the 1980s. the continuity of government exercises established by the reagan administration. this was again at a peak of cold war tensions with the soviet union. the issue was what would happen if there was a soviet attack on the united states, on washington in which several top officers were killed and the response of the reagan administration was to set up a secret program is elaborate exercises in which three different teams were established -- they actually ran drills, teams of -- i forget 30 to 45 career officials who would know how to run the government and they needed someone to be in charge of each team so they appointed several people who knew how the federal government ran, and then they would take a cabinet member. now the cabinet member could be someone like secretary of agriculture, john block, for example, someone who didn't know national security. but the person who would really know how to run the show would be a former white

it was the rumsfeld doctrine. have we learned that the powell doctrine from this war is the lesson that the powell doctrine trumps the rumsfeld doctrine? >> no. first you will never find in the manual the powell doctrine. it was named by a reporter. that's fine. our doctrine says have a clear political goal and then decisive terms. i prefer that term over to overwhelming. in case of the recent conflict, a judgment was made by the commanders, general franks and mr. rumsfeld and the joints chief of staff and presented to the president at a much lighter force can take down baghdad and they were absolutely right. and on the 9th of april, 2003, baghdad fell and everybody was cheering. they were saying, this is terrific. it's the way we thought. unfortunately the war wasn't over. it was just beginning. it took in my judgment too long to o recognize that we needed to put more force in. i thrng we would have been in a much different place if we had surged in the fall of 2003 rather than many years lateer. >> a general who

and ey all have, they are all intellectuly brilliant apart from rumsfeld. they are all intellectuay illiant but they speakin very enigmatic clipped phrases. we all know about rumsfeld about his knowns and unknown knowns and his poetic sayingnd we gave characters in the film. he says all roads lead to munich d thene'll walk away. d also the other thing is they have a certainty about themselves which mns that, see -- >> charlie: it's re than about themselves. it's about the know better, theyave seen e truth d they will now -- >>nd therefore absurdity drives what the policy is. finally presented with evidence at there are well-known weaps of mass destruction. their automatic responses well they mt be hidg them. and in fact it's that certainty that drives evething. >> charlie the ps them into syria. >> but it also mes that the building i not an aggressive one, it's acknowledge emotial psychologil one. if they speak to someonewho disagrees with them, their thinking is io longer need to ta to you because you are beneat me. >> charlie: benea me nor do you have --

rice, the national security adviser and got virtually nowhere, so wound up calling secretary rumsfeld. and after some hemming and hawing, which was rumsfeld's forte, he finally admitted that he had dispatched some of tease te teams. i don't think he sent them to the horn of africa, probably to afghanistan and pakistan, he probably sent them to indonesia, southeast asia in general, and he was after every one from abu zooif to al qaeda. i don't think we ever knew the full range of his deployments. and in most cases, i think it was delta force. it was probably directly through the special operations command commander in tampa, didn't go through the regional commanders. in other words, they didn't know it was happening either. didn't go through the ambassadors, didn't even go through the cia station chief, until later when i believe the cia became involved in it, and then, of course, it became both a military and an intelligence agency operation. >> the whole reason why this has turned into a huge story is because of the claims from people with knowledge of what happened inside those inte

he wouldn't criticize rumsfeld over iraq. was very deferential and stayed in the role as errol says. but to answer your question, what flaws caused him to make the mistakes, you know, the image that one could now get, even of mcnamara in government, anguished over the possible flaws in the strategy, is really very misleading. he was ferocious against people without disagreed with the strategy. there are many, many accounts, for example, of his treatment of roger hillcircumstances sun would be just one example. people who dared to actually question the strategy openly were treated with contempt, told to go jump in a lake. so he was securing the line of continuing the war, escalating, engaging in some bombing. and that this was absolutely essential for the sake of the united states' interests. and that was very of the overwhelming presence of robert mcnamara in government for those eight years. >> lehrer: all right, we're going to have to leave it there. ms. shapley, mr. errol morris, thank you both very much. >> thank you. >>

he wouldn't criticize rumsfeld over iraq he was ry deferential and stayed ithe role asrrol says.t to answer your question, what flaws caused him to ke the mistakes, you kno the imagethat one could n get, even ofcnamara in government, angshed over the posble flaws in the strategy, is reay very misleadin he was ferocious against people without disagreed with the sategy. there are my, many accounts, for example,f hi treatment of roger hillcircumstans sun would be justne example. people who dareto actually question the rategy openly were treatedith contempt, told togo jump in a lake. so he was securg theline of continuing the war, escalating, enging in some bombing. and that this w absolutely essential forhe sake of he united states' interests. and tha was veryf the overwhelming presence of rober mcnamara in government f those eight years. >> lehrer: all right, we're going to have to leave it thre. . shapley, mr. errol morris, thank you bothery much. >> thankou. >> thank yo >> hrer: and on our >> lehrer: on our weite, you can watcall of the interview with mcnamara and the reacon to h

. >> rose: you don't want to second guess rumsfeld. >> absolutely not. i want to stop you one second. 71-- you won't believe this, 71 recorders, t.v., radio, magazine newspaper, from all over the world, australia, brazil, western europe, have asked me to comment on iraq. i haven't responded to one. the reason is i think it is irresponsible for an ex-secretary of defense to comment in any way on the actions of a president who's deeply involved in war with hundreds of thousands of our citizens at risk. and he is carrying out very delicate negotiations with the u.n. and other countries. i haven't said a word and i'm not going to. >> see, this is where we do disagree. >> rose: what do you disagree about? >> i think that it's very important for robert mcnamara to speak out about these issues. >> rose: i do, too. >> i know he has very, very strong feelings. i know he said things to me in private. ment >> i'll kill you if you repeat them! >> and, in fact, i won't repeat them out of respect for him and our relationship. but i know that he has spent a life... a l

and yet secretary rumsfeld did not come to the command center until all the planes were down.until the entire event was long over. at first he thought he didn't need to come. that it would be handled in the ordinary course. and then when the plane hit the pentagon, he went out to help. again, a very human instinct but indeed we had no phone call, not the faa's call, not the nsc's call, not the pentagon's call were all the relevant players were on the phone. you had an faa call with the faa folks and dod call with the dod folks. nobody had the secretary of defense. and only some of them were plugged into the vice president. so having -- having real clarity is very important and making sure that we have all joined hands around that clarity is critical for a sense of legitimate si. -- legitimacy. let me make a couple of comments on some of the debates we had here, do we have individuals in the line of succession who were outside of washington? i think we can't trivialize the possibility that washington is not functioning. and we just to have come to grips with that. now, you can

campbell: donald rumsfeld is no longer secretary of defense. has not been for some time.there is a different president. we are dealing with the -- with appropriations for a fiscal year that begins later this year and goes into 2010. if you think -- this is necessary, just don't say it's for this company, it's $1.5 million. another question, i have -- i will in a second. how do you determine the $1.5 million is the right price? what are you getting for $1.5 million? how do you know you couldn't get the same thing somewhere else for half that? i yield. mr. taylor: you are exactly right. because of the lack of trained professionals, there really isn't anyone in the d.o.d. anymore who can say what something should cost. you don't learn that overnight. we are trying to restore that. we are trying -- second point -- mr. campbell: i'm happy to exchange. if there's nobody, then isn't that something the armed servicings committee should be dealing with? i yield. mr. taylor: we are dealing with it. the other part is on those major programs, starting with the big ones, whenever we b

donald rumsfeld -- iraq national day. donald rumsfeld had stopped by baghdad. he was not getting messages that there was some red line here. if you had been saddam hussain's intelligence analyst and he said what you think the americans will do if we solve our economic problems and solve some of the issues in the gulf region by taking over this piece of land that thinks it is a country called kuwait? and we will call that our 19th province. if he were the intelligence analyst there is no way you would have predicted that the united states would deploy hundreds of thousands of troops, aircraft carriers, and dozens of aircraft in response. i doubt if an american intelligence analyst would have predicted that. as any intelligence is, you look at the world in a rear view mirror. if you are driving down the highway you can steer by just looking in a rear view mirror. i recommend that you try this. [laughter] if you pick a point on the mirror and you watched the lines go by anti -- and you can go well until you come to a toll booth. that is what intelligence analyst s

house and rumsfeld was a superb organizer. he knew how to manage. he knew how to run an organization. he had organized president ford's white house and he saw right away that this was -- well, a mistake, because there was no way a president could give up control over domestic policy. it was too great a part of his responsibility. anyway, the promise had been made and we tried to make the best of it. after a tussle between rockefeller and cheney over who should be the domestic policy advisor, the president appointed me and that's how i came to have the job. we had no idea what it did. we had studied it, tried to understand it. and the domestic policy staff, you were gone and the others were gone by that time. we couldn't ask them what they had done. so i got into the job thinking it would -- you know, doing high level policy. and that's what governor rockefeller thought, vice president rockefeller thought it was going to be. but it didn't work out that way. and i got my first assignment -- i think this is a fair example of how

maybe not rumsfeld's washington, but -- >> do you think the shift from the bush administration to the obama administration has changed their climate here to the point where some cable and satellite executives feel comfortable putting on a channel like alzu yeara. >> i'm sure it helped. at the same time, when people watch the show what is really attractive for is showing parts of the world that we don't show and when britain and america are very much the same. we don't do enough about south america and south asia and don't do enough about south america and so on and so on. those are thing that people find refreshing. >> do you get any input on your program from management and al jazeera? >> i know they assured me from the beginning that the editorial freedom and there has been complete, total, no interference, whatever. don't want to do anything from israel, we do it from israel and absolutely across the board and most delighted experience. >> not long ago you sat down with yokoono and you started by playing footage 40 years ago. >> 40 years ago. >> john lennon and yokooono, let's take

not like policymakers secretary rumsfeld and cheney. this is designed to go after rogue interrogators who weren't following the guidance. >> how do you find those people? >> beyond that is this going to be independent counsel? because independent counsel have to be independent. the example, ken starr. ken starr did not want to go all the places he went, but he was drawn by the logic of his unfolding investigation. if they think they can control the parameters of this, they are very much mistaken. >> whether it's an independent counsel or a prosecutor, there's a momentum that gets going and these things tend to unravel. >> you're shocked that the cia keeps secrets. i'm shocked that vice president cheney would, you know, give orders, if in fact, he did. it's unlikely. >> i must say, i have very mixed minds on this. on the one hand, the whole idea that it gets washington into this horrible slaw where everybody hates each other and the poison gets thick. >> unlike at the moment, right? >> well, no, it hasn't been as bad lately as the last 1

to the extent paulson is getting any credit, it's overplayed, like giving rumsfeld war hero status for >> how can you say that? he didn't get us in this mess? >> i sat in a hearing with him in early 2008, there's no problem in the mortgage markets, economy is coming along, the market will take care of itself. >> except for a couple of bears always bearish and always predicting doom and turn out to be right. >> he was the secretary of treasury, he has to be right. >> i think the guy took the steps we needed at that time. the fact he wanted a $700 billion hedge fund with very little restriction, who can blame him? he knew how to run the money better than government did. >> too little too late. >> we have three ultra liberals. the liberal press right there before you, bill gates, playing god, the microsoft founder and several scientists have come up with a contraption they say it can be used to reduce the number and severity of hurricanes by basically taking the cold water from the bottom of the ocean and moving it to the top of the ocean. the consequences, who knows? i say this story is

dick cheney, and donald rumsfeld who broke iraq. it was the united states. bill: how walter cronkite influenced the liberal media and his coverage of barack obama. bernie goldberg and i will analyze. >> going to put the naacp pass. >> naacp has a resolution. i'm the national black chamber of commerce and you are trying to put up some other black group to pit against me. it's racial. bill: why is the head of the black chamber of commerce so angry with senator barbara boxer? >> i think it's important. grill. bill: he will be here to tell us. ♪ working at the car wash ♪ working at the car wash, girl. bill: the make-a-wish foundation says no to a bikini car wash donation. >> those kids would be happy to receive anything. >> the culture warriors will weigh in on that. bill: caution, you are about to enter the no spin zone. the factor begins right now. [captioning made possible by fox news channel] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- bill: hi, i'm bill o'reilly. thanks for watching us tonight. walter cronkite, barack obama, and the am

lately he's been called everything from the anti- rumsfeld to a bureaucrat unbowed. he sees himself as a public servant with a duty to make a difference. there's no higher calling in his eyes. it gives me great pleasure and honor to welcome the secretary of defense dr. robert gates. >> thank you, secretary daily. it is an honor to the economic club of schicago. i appreciate the special arrangements you have made. i want to thank all the distinguished citizens of this great city laware here today. i am mindful that i am speaking in the hometown of my boss. president obama's and his greetings, as do rahm emanuel and david axelrod and the rest of the chicago group. they are discovering that washington is the true windy city, no doubt. [laughter] [applause] the place where those who travel the high road of humility encounter little heavy traffic. [laughter] the only place in the world you can't prominent person walking down lover's lane holding his own hand. [laughter] the issues that brings me here today is central to the security of all americans, the future of the u.s

they want to know what else there is to know, and if i could quickly quote donald rumsfeld from his famous news briefing in 2002, there are unknown unknowns. the ones we don't know, the ones we don't know, and that's what the situation is right now. is there more? what else is there to be told to congress? can leon panetta figure it out. >> i understand, april, that the white house is looking at this very closely. what do they want to know? >> well, the president, indeed, wants to find out more, but you have to remember, don, you know, right after 9/11 the bush white house was trying to gain more information, and this obama administration found that the information that they pulled for this data mining was not productive, and my sources inside the white house and inside the administration say it's no surprise that they had this secret, this secret program. >> and, april, sonia sotomayor, her confirmation hearings begin tomorrow. it's been a very controversial couple months leading up to them. what are you looking at tomorrow? what are you hear beiing about start of those hearings. >> i hav

. >> rose: youon't want to second guess rumsfeld. >> absolutely not. i want to stop you oneecond. 71-- you won't believe this, 71 recorders, t.v., radio, magazine newspar, from all over the world, australia, brazil, western europe, have ked me to comment iraq. i haven't resnded to one. the ason is i think it is irresponsie for an ex-sretary of defense to comment in a way on the acons of a presint who's eply involved in war wit hundreds of thousands o our citizens at ris and he is crying out very delica negotiations with the u.n. andther counies. i haven't said a word and i'm notgoing to. >> see, thiss where we do disagree. >> rose: what do you disagre about? >> i thinkthat it's very portant for robert mcnamara to speak out abt these issues. rose: i do,oo. >> inow he has very, vy strong feelings. i knowhe said thgs to me in private. ment >> i'll kl you if y repeat them! >> and, in fact, i won't repeat them out of respect for him and our relationsp. but i know that he has spent a fe... a large fraction of a lifen plic service. d he has learned a lot of t

. >>>>> g gereratns before people like dicick eneneynd donalal rumsfeld and alberto nznzal representediticalightning dsds iamerica, there was former defense secrety robert mcnamara, thedefining lightning rod dd of vietn i in this country. he died yesrday at his h home i washington. he w revid during the kekenny andohnson administratis for orchestrinthe escalions of the vietnam war which killed 58,000 americans and miions of vietnase and cambodian he was reviledin later yrs that iwas revead he continued to promote and plan the war ev after he h rsonally concluded as earlyas 1965 that the war uld not be n militarily. he left offic in 1968 and sat by silently while thear went on for sevenore years. late in life, mcnamara publically agonidd about the decisionhe made about the war, mo famouslin thecumentary "the fog of wa" against that backdrop the printed response to mcnamara's death by the great w correspondent joe galloway has caused a stir. under the headline, "reading an obit with great pleasure," he writes, theptly named strange robert mcnumber era uffled off to join lbjnd dick nixon

people like bob dole, strom thurman, donald rumsfeld, gerald ford as members of congress all opposed it. in those days the fact is the democrats moved forward. they didn't worry about we have to have x number of republicans. their mission was we're going to get a good medicare bill. that's what they did. that needs to be our charge, not a bipartisan bill -- though i hope it is bipartisan and i hope republicans vote for it -- but our mission, our charge is we need a strong bill that works for the middle class that works for people in the country that don't have insurance and it works for people that already have decent insurance. in our bill that came out of the committee in the senate it's exactly that. >> what was going to be the reaction in the democratic caucus in the united states senate if the public option is not in the deal that comes out of the finance committee? >> people are going to be unhappy and there will be a lot of pressure on leader reed to adopt a bill that's much more main stream democratic like the health committee but also main stream american bill. the country o

hamdi versus rumsfeld i believe it's 2004. they said the purpose of detention against enemy combatants is to keep them from going back to the battlefield, from going back to the battle. if that's the purpose of our detaining these people in the first place, then this entire, you know, experiment and increasing the types of rights, whatever you want to call them of these individuals, is quite precarious for our future. our soldier's future. >> lawyer remarks under your scenario, why do we have a trial at all? why don't we just keep them? laura: you can have a trial, no, no, no. you can have a trial but it's not the trial that american citizens or people who are not enemy combatants would receive in the united states who do deserve constitutional protections. for instance, steven, do you think they should be able to make ineffective assistance of counsel claims, sixth amendment claims during their cases? >> i do. i think they are entitled to a fair attorney that's competent. yes, i do. i think they should have that right. i thin

to work wiwith t p psident and mamakeure we win this thing,g,ut lelet's t t y to go back to the rumsfeld of trngngo just gout, kill people, leaveveanand try to get outut of erer >> i iththathe risk of this administrationon n?? that's the risk. at's the risk. >> you think we needed mor troops? >> i know ththate e shld listen general mcchrystal anand leaders on t g grod who, cocoing to news reports, n not my inforortitionsay we are going to nd d ditional troops in ororr to really secure.. we talk about economicic, political, milititary. fit you've got to providida a cure environment. we prorod d th time after time. >>n n tes of iran, the president sasays bseseember they abandoned d e e prram, get into negogotiioionsr face consequences. at does this administrtratn n have to do nowowo o gethem to ababdon a nuclear program?m? >> loooo t thiis one of the tougughe c chaenges we face. again,n, we want t to wrk wthth the presididen meaningful sanctctnsns nd to be imposed, b butlslso need to tell the people ofof in n wee struggling for a free e demoacac a an en society and electionsns that are f f

to work with the president and make sure we win this thing, but let's not try to go back to the rumsfeld era of trying to just go out, kill people, leave, and try to get out of there. >> is that the risk of this administration now? >> that's the risk. that's the risk. >> you think we need more troops? >> i know that we should listen to general mcchrystal and leaders on the ground who, according to news reports, not my information, say we are going to need additional troops in order to really secure. we talk about economic, political, military. first you've got to provide a secure environment. we proved that time after time. >> in terms of iran, the president says by september they abandoned the program, get into negotiationed or face consequences. what does this administration have to do now to get them to abandon a nuclear program? >> look, this is one of the toughest challenges we face. we all want to work with the president. meaningful sanctions need to be imposed, but also we need to tell the people of iran we're struggling for a free democracy in an open society and elections that a

they want to know what else there is to know, and if i could quickly quote donald rumsfeld from his famous news briefing in 2002, there are unknown unknowns. the ones we don't know, the ones we don't know, and that's what the situation is right now. is there more? what else is there to be told to congress? can leon panetta figure it out. >> i understand, april, that the white house is looking at this very closely. what do they want to know? >> well, the president, indeed, wants to find out more, but you have to remember, don, you know, right after 9/11 the bush white house was trying to gain more information, and this obama administration found that the information that they pulled for this data mining was not productive, and my sources inside the white house and inside the administration say it's no surprise that they had this secret, this secret program. >> and, april, sonia sotomayor, her confirmation hearings begin tomorrow. it's been a very controversial couple months leading up to them. what are you looking at tomorrow? what are you hearing about the start of those hearings. >> i hav

in fact, married went on at the pentagon under special forces under secretary of defense rumsfeld, and that operation was misbegotten and it had some very bad results. there were a couple of operations taking place by military special forces, going to places and going after terrorist targets. in one case, the cia was not told, the american ambassador in the country in particular was not told. and the person that was killed was the wrong person. so that showed -- >> mr. cannistera, could you tell us, would it be possible that maybe american citizens might have been targeted in this program? >> no, i don't believe american targets were targeted by the program. as i said, the program never actually reached the point of being activated. >> should the congress have been briefed? should the congress have been briefed on it? >> only when it reaches a certain level. basically, if you're just talking about the possibility and speculating on it, but you haven't actualized the program, there's nothing to brief yet. so were the brokens briefed? of course they were. were actual operations briefed?

want to work w wh theresident and make sure we win this thing, but let't's notry to go bk to the rumsfeld era of tryg to just go out, kill people, ave, and trto get out of there.e. >> is that theisk of this administraration no >> t tt's thrisk. thatat's therisk. >> youhink we need more troops? >> i know that we shouldld list gener mcchrystal and leaders on theheroundwho, according to newss rerts, not my infoformatio say we are goi toeed additionana tops in order to r really secure. we talk about economic, polititical, mitary. first you've got to provide a secure environment. we proved that tim after time. >> in terms o iran, the president says by september they abandoned the program, get into negotiationed or face consequences. what does this administrion have to do to get them t abandon a nuclear program? >> look, this is one o the toughest chaenges we face. we all want to wk with the president. meaningful sanions need to be imposed, but also we needo tell the people of in we' struggling for ae democracy in an open society and elections that are fr. i'mot talking about sending arms. i th

when you can't be audited, you don't know what happened to the money did rumsfeld was horrified.e rally chileans of dollars of transactions -- literally trillions of dollars of transactions cannot be tracked. clinton had the same problem, they didn't solve it, either. we have a new bill in this senate armed services committee national force -- authorization act point, and it's prophetic. -- act, and it is pathetic. it sets a goal of year 2017 to have the defense department be able to comply with an audit. this is required to be immediately the case in the chief financial officers act of 1990. the clinton administration got that waived. the provision in the bill this week is sold -- is so packed that that has a second provision that says the defense department, if you don't think you can get to this goal, waived it, send us a report and tell us what you think the goal should be. host: our guest, winslow wheeler, offers this book. this tweet -- what about the super hornet for the navy carriers? guest: of there are two big chunks of pork in this bill, seven additional at 22's for $1