at least that's what my next guess ryan goodman, along with msnbc's mr. mcquade and norm eisen.n through a vigilante justice or criminal, regardless of what trump actually believed at the time. quote, even if the lawyers were confident that trump thought he won and could prove his state of mind in court, it would surely not have secured their misgivings about the illicit methods, nor should it. trump's state of mind and that regard as irrelevant. and ryan goodman joins me now. he is a former special counsel of the former department of defense. he is currently a law professor at new york university and co-editor in chief and just a security. ryan, welcome. walk me through your reasoning here about trump's state of mind. and why it's not relevant while discussing his criminal efforts? >> sure, so the idea here is that there are several federal crimes that would apply to his actions and state crimes, especially in georgia, that the element of the crime is not dependent upon whether or not he thought he actually won the election or the prosecutors been able to prove anything about i

joining us is one of the authors of that op-ed, ryan goodman, a law professor at new york university.d matter, theres a crime in which it would matter, but there are other core crimes that it doesn't. so let's just take, for example, the 800 people, over 800 people who have been charged with the insurrection or engaging in the riot. it doesn't matter that they think trump won and i would assume a great majority of them do. it's about their other forms of intent. for example, if trump engaged in intimidation or threat of officials in order to try to overturn the election, that's what they need to prove. this he don't need to prove whether or not he thought he won. so, for example, if they say, well, you threatened the georgia secretary of state, defense counsel can't stand up in court and say, yes, that's because he thought he won. that's the crime. that's part of the problem for him. another one fraudulent documents, you can't, you know, submit fake documents from these alternative slate of electors to the national archives to gum the works. you can't say i thought i won so that's why

at least that's what my next guess ryan goodman, along with msnbc's mr. mcquade and norm eisen.hange the election through a vigilante justice or criminal, regardless of what trump actually believed at the time. quote, even if the lawyers were confident that trump thought he won and could prove his state of mind in court, it would surely not have secured their misgivings about the illicit methods, nor should it. trump's state of mind and that regard as irrelevant. and ryan goodman joins me now. he is a former special counsel of the former department of defense. he is currently a law professor at new york university and co-editor in chief and just a security. ryan, welcome. walk me through your reasoning here about trump's state of mind. and why it's not relevant while discussing his criminal efforts? >> sure, so the idea here is that there are several federal crimes that would apply to his actions and state crimes, especially in georgia, that the element of the crime is not dependent upon whether or not he thought he actually won the election or the prosecutors been able to prove

. >>> now i want to bring in ryan goodman, coeditor and chief for justice security, john dean, former watergate whistle blower and abby phillip anchor of politics subd and our political correspondent. you heard congressman raskin talking about, you know, trump and what he did told again and again and again in the specifics brought toot acting attorney general that none of it added up in great detail yet continued to push them out there anyway. did the committee today show trump did anything illegal? >> i think it d on two lechls at least. presented, as you say and representative raskin said with career, unambiguous information, that there is nothing to any of the allegations. so that meant he had no evidence for his thoughts of what happened to the election wet still tried to interrupt the certification. that amounts to corrupt obstruction of criminal proceedings. one of the main defenses the department is pursuing and the second one, trying to pressure kmsing officials to interfere in the election, we saw that today, on a daily was pressuring those officials, at the point of telling

. >> "outfront" now, ryan goodman, coeditor in chief, gloria, our chief political analyst, and bill crystalef of staff to vice-president dan quayle. let me start with you, today was an important day for these hearings and had a clear narrative, focus, subject, character. you've been following all of them closely, did they make the case today trump was directly responsible for endangering mike pence's life? >> i think they did, it was pretty devastating, at least as a factual matter, direct causal connection between trump's tweet and the violence that ensues. and we see from the 1video, the people in the white house think that's what's happening, so reasonable person would anticipate that is the result, pouring g pouring gasoline on a fire. us saying, that is the last thing needed to be tweeted at that moment and we know from prior testimony, mark short, chief of staff anticipated this and in fact warned secret service that trump would lash out and endanger the life of the vice-president and that seems to be what happened. >> we also have a source telling our kaitlan collins that trump and p

i want to bring in to talk now about all of this as pamela shared, ryan goodman, coeditor and chief of justice security, online legal form that's been devoted to the january 6th investigations as of late, jones, former adviser to president obama, former white house press secretary who actually resigned on january 6th, following the insurrection, and former nixon white house council and watergate whistle blower, john dean. so, there was a lot in there today. but this was jaw-dropping hearing. it was a powerful witness. what did cassidy hutchinson prove today? >> i think she proved she cares a lot about this country. she's 25, 26 years old. you know, when you take a job at the white house, you take the same oath that you take when you join the military, that you're supposed to put the constitution above everything else and as best she could she did that today. she gets nothing out of it. she's probably destroyed her career with the republicans, a strong conservative. i think she did something i wish more people would do. she came forward and shared what she knew and what she heard and i

with me now laura jarrett "early start" anchor who covered the justice department for years and ryan goodmanfessor at nyu school of law and former special counsel to the general counsel of the department of defense. lawyer ration that was a great overview of the totality of what we saw yesterday, the enormity in some ways of what we saw yesterday and after it was done trump administration officials and allies told our kaitlan collins they thought it was the most damaging hearing yet, even pl bleak. why? >> because you had three trump appointees, not democrats, lifelong republicans, going on the record saying that the former president of the united states instructed them to tell a lie, to tell a lie about election fraud that did not happen and the only reason that brought him back from the brink, the only reason that he didn't go through with it was that he was told the optics would be so bad that the entire justice department top ranks would quit. that's the only reason he didn't go through with it and we have a peek behind the curtain into his intent directly now from donoghue, the acting d