and ryan goodman is a law professor at new york university. he is also the co-editor in chief of just security. i want to start with you, paul. i want to get your reaction to these possible violations, including the espionage act charge. >> charles, the genius of the justice department's choice of the three crimes listed in the search warrant is that none requiring documents be classified. the espionage act sounds like spying. but you are guilty if you are grossly negligent in taking or storing documents that could harm the security interests of the united states. and with trump it's always the question of whether he had criminal intent. but charles, the evidence, what makes it incriminating? as you said first they asked him nicely here. got that polite requests from the national archives. and that's when they ratcheted up the pressure with a grand jury subpoena. and when that didn't work, that is what brought trump that fbi raid. >> ryan, a moment ago, i mentioned that there is new reporting for the new york times. for sources told the paper

charles coleman is an msnbc legal analyst and ryan goodman is a former special counsel to the general counsel of the defense apartment. say that five times fast. welcome to you both. charles, let me start with, you we know that the judge could decide to release a redacted version of the mar-a-lago affidavit. now, former president trump says the documents search violated his fourth amendment protection against illegal search and seizure. you have trump's council telling a conservative radio show host, mark levin, that they are considering firing a motion to appoint a special master to review documents that were seized by the fbi. what's the special master to? what is the endgame? >> a special master is someone who would look at the evidence from impartiality. the inclination that the trump attorneys are suggesting in advance of the doj and the fbi are not impartial parties. we know that's not true. but they're already leaving room to cast out through disinformation, confusion and narrative control around what it is that the fbi is going to -- opponents review of the 11 different boxes

based on you had ryan goodman on earlier, and he laid out the fundamentals quite well.assified information, yes. but just with the fact that there are government documents, the documents of the american people held in trust by the u.s. government. those are not donald trump's papers. i don't care if they're about the former french president or they're about something else, he should not have had those after january 20th, 2021. that is something that is inescapable that. is a separate decision whether there is a prosecution. there are plenty of cases where there is evidence to prosecute somebody and a credentialed choice was not to prosecute based on mitigating circumstances. but in this case, there seems to be clear evidence based on the fact that a judge approved this rare search and seizure that there's something very serious here, and i have to note, on the classified side, as a former intelligence officer, i know people who died in service trying to get information like this. you cannot treat that material as cavalierly as this appears to have been without some pote

nyu law professor ryan goodman called the memo a get out of jail free card in a statement to "the newl katyal, i guess the only hoax was the one trump doj played on all of us. >> the question that pete strzok couldn't answer for me, if you thought the mueller report was garbage and it turned out nothing could endanger trump criminally, why work so hard and spend nine pages tearing it apart? >> 100%, nicole. i think this memo just goes to show what we already knew in a way which is that donald trump got a blanket pass on his illegal conduct for far too long and there are all sorts of substantive criticisms of the memo, some of which you're referring to and others like the nine-page memo blows off the accusations that donald trump was giving pardons to flip witnesses to his benefit. that's not anywhere mentioned in this. the memo gets key supreme court decisions absolutely wrong. there's a substantive critique. what we haven't talked about is the procedural critique because mueller was a special counsel and i regulated that when i was staffer in 1999 and the whole point of the special c

. >>> now ryan goodman, the former special counsel at the defense department and co-editor in chief of the security blog and professor at nyu law school and stephanie grisham, former press secretary for president trump and gloria borger. ryan, let's start with the tapes. should the fbi be concerned that trump could release these? >> i don't think they should be concerned in terms of they seemed to have followed everything by the book. but there's another reason for them to be concerned, and that's according to "the wall street journal"'s reporting. the fbi said to the folks at mar lageo, please turn off the surveillance tapes citing officer safety. >> in terms of people being identified what they are? >> exactly. if we see them and their faces, that could be a serious concern. when the arrest warm was leaked to breitbart that included the two fbi agent's names. so it's something of a similar concern. that's something real. and that's also what might be the legal jeopardy for those who thought it might be an interesting idea to release this information. >> fbi says there's been an unpre

the significance, what stands out from the memo and i wonder if you agree with nyu law professor ryan goodman who told "the new york times" this is a get out of jail free card. he sees this as sort of shocking. >> i do think it is shocking. i will say that what it really is, it looks to me like the former attorney general, you know, here being advised by former law school classmate of mine, basically to -- turning themselves in knots trying to find excuses not to charge the former president with obstruction. and it is interesting because mueller left this as a jump ball. he said mueller said, look, i can't charge him now anyway, is i won't make a decision. they were trying to find a way not to charge him and that ultimately meant they took -- they made arguments they never made in another case. >> let me ask you there, what is the history for public officials charged with and convicted of obstruction of justice in the past, has there typically been an underlying crime? that's another argument in this memo, right, there was obstruction, but there wasn't enough there there evidence of a crime b

. -- former fbi special agent, and ryan goodman, former special counsel to the department of defense. now quite there and chief of the just security block. thank you guys for being here. ryan, let's start with the voters response today to the trump lawsuit evan was laying out. the question the judge, raises they seem pretty straightforward and should be answered. i, mean evan and i mentioned, the search was appointed to trump in 2020. what do you make of her response? >> i think political discarded very, well that the quest for clarification that she is asking dovetails with all of the criticisms that we heard in the last 24 hours from legal observers. just saying things like, what is this? it is really not with a legal complaint looks like. it is a lot of political arguments. but it is also unclear, why is this in her court, why did they filed with the judge who is entertaining the case and house all the information about it? is it a civil suit? when we are dealing with a criminal matter, what is the specific relief that we are asking for? she is pushing on all of these questions, an

. >> "outfront" now, ryan goodman, former special counsel at the department of defense. now co-editor in chief of just security, and kaitlan collins, our chief white house correspondent who covered all four years of the trump white house. ryan, let's start with you. looking ahead, the judge has given the doj a deadline for tomorrow for various filings that could be, as we just went through, quite significant. they also may provide this much more detailed list of what was seized. what are you looking for in all these filings tomorrow? >> so i think the thing i'm looking for most is whether or not the justice department uses the opportunity to rebut the narrative that the trump lawyers have submitted. usually, the justice department remains completely silent about the underlying facts in an investigation, but the trump lawyers in their initial motion to the judge -- >> very plittle. >> hyperpolitical and this narrative about how cooperative we have been amidst derogatory information we know from the reporting from "the new york times," et cetera, that one of the lawyers ma

. >>> let's go to ryan goodman, coolivia troy, former homeland security and terrorism adviser to then vice president mike pence. you hear kaitlan's reporting there. if you were still working in the white house, you're in what is now the biden white house, how worried would you be about the documents that former president trump had at this point given what we know about them? >> well, i'd be incredibly concerned. it's a guessing game right now to figure out what exactly was in these documents, and who saw them, and where they ended up or where they copied or where they get into others or foreign adversaries, considering the amount of foreigners that go on to that property, and so i'd just be concerned about what was there, what is known, and whether any of our defense capabilities, weapons systems or intelligence officers on the ground, whether any of this information at risk. they're right to be concerned, and i think that, you know, i could see across the national security community, anybody who holds a clearance, or really cares about our homeland security and national security as a

joining us now are former special counsel to the general counsel department of defense ryan goodman and rebecca roissy. thank you both for being here on what we said was definitely no shortage of news this morning. i wonder what's your reaction to this first filing that we got from trump's legal team today. it took two weeks for them to get there. and they are now asking for this third party attorney. but i think, we're wondering, if it's too late? >> it does seem too late. it's two weeks after the search began. so you'd actually think it should be filed hours after the search began. and it's a reasonable request in some sense to ask for something like this from a third party. >> why is it reasonable? >> it's reasonable, because we might think we don't necessarily trust the way the fbi would conduct it. we want an objective third party institution to view things to sort out what they should have versus what they shouldn't. but the content is as quite bizarre. what they're saying that the government should have is not ordinary at all. >> let's talk about that a little bit. the cork that

ryan goodman, co-editor and chief of the just security blog and professor at nyu school of law. dana bash, chief political correspondent, co-anchor of "state of the union" and bill ar kin, "newsweek" senior security correspondent who broke the story that an informant tipped off the fbi to the documents found at mar-a-lago. according to "the new york times," several advisers who know the president said trump told them about the documents, quote, it's not theirs. it's mine, talking about the national archives. does he have any claim to intelligence that he would have received that it becomes his? >> he has zero claim to that. it's not his, it's the u.s. government's. that's what the archives said to him. the idea he would say it's not theirs, it's mine, is very incriminating because it suggests that's the mine set. that's the criminal mindset. that's what the espionage act targets, if you get a demand to return the documents, you have to return them. the fact he's saying this is the reason i'm not is no excuse in the law. let's put it that way. >> bill, you broke the news an infor

yes, goodman offices here, you really do get a sense of the history and everything that's happened ah oh, rich cultural landscape with monasteries, wine and history of plenty. the setting for the ryan gal music festival here in western germany. with 170 concerts from jazz through classical, the festival is one of the largest of its kind in europe. especially popular the mozart night at aicpa abbey. ah, for mozart maniacs and any one who prefers their classical music on the lighter side, or 1st of the festival springs orchestra from new san in switzerland. ah, ah, ah. mm hm. if it is on mozart, his music de linsey gwyle, i'd say, mozart's music, if it's played well now, which is precisely the place so it's intended to reach go. i thought he spoke the mind and the heart of honest nurses, of the same time, aunt does his, the son about hans. what's so special about mozart's music as animals either way, i see it. his music is a microcosm of humanity from, from of the human side of life, from the mansion cited this. laban? oh, gang amadi, a small child musical prodigy crisis racked creator of world famous operas, symphonies, and chamber music. oh, complex, yet accessible. ah, they're now

. >>> up next, brian goodman, the co-editor in chief of the security blog and alyssa fair griffin, former white house communications director for president trump. ryan, back to "the washington post" and the reporting that as lawrence tribe was talking about, pat cipollone was, at the time, obviously trump's counsel, and then in this back md forth with the national archives, really admits over a year ago that there were about two dozen boxes of records that should have been returned, that they -- that had not been returned. what do you think of this? >> so i think evan is right that the initial communications we have, they're gently and pleadingly reaching out to president trump's team to ask for the documents back. i do think it's important at what point they turn those pleading statements into a demand. after the point of a demand, then it really triggers trump's criminal liability. you have to return the documents once you receive a demand from somebody titled to receive them. so that's one part of it. the other part is how far back this goes. it's been a struggle pulling teeth to get the documents, which contradicts the filing that the trump team

yeah. goodman offices here you really do get a sense of the history and everything that's happened ah oh, rich cultural landscape with monasteries, wine and history of plenty. the setting for the ryan gal music festival here in western germany. with 170 concerts from jazz through classical the festival is one of the larger.