sally mae go away and give away.y we see before three-day weekends, a lot of things i have learned over 50 years to look for didn't show up this year right now, as you say, things should be getting reasonably better, particularly going into thanksgiving traditionally it's an upbeat time for the market. doesn't look like it's happening. >> so you could categorically say you don't believe the run-up into the holidays we would historically see, you don't see that playing out this year >> i think it's in doubt the reason being that every other seasonality this year has come up short, so you've got to assume we're slightly off track. the question is unless you see it start to move back in the right direction, you have to be somewhat doubtful of where you're going. >> where does 2017 rank in the years that have stumped art cashin have you seen another like it in recent memory? >> i've seen a couple of years that have stumped me this is high up there. this is follow patterns -- i guess what we should have done is realize th