many were salty fannie and freddie, but they kept the wrist. that's why they got thank you so much trouble because they believed it seems that these mortgages or mortgage-backed security were really good investment. so i think we have to look at both sides of this equation. the private sector responding to the incentives that were created by the government, send us more of these mortgages because we need them to meet the hud quotas, and then the government's role, especially hud, and forcing fannie and freddie to continue on this course, even though by the late 2000s, they would be getting to see that fannie and freddie were on their way to insolvency if they continued to follow this course. >> host: there's an earlier issue in the private sector that generated a lot of private sector interest in creating these mortgages. interest rates were at the time at record lows coming out of the 2001 recession. the fed had lowest -- lowered interest rates. they could get the same kind of returns a long a long expected on bonds. they were looking for a wa