not -- >> sandy weil. >> yeah, sandy weil. and i sort of say, "sandy, you know, we didn't do very well." and he's not comfortable with that conversation at all. i think he would still defend that it was a good merger, it just went off the tracks afterwards. i -- >> when it went off the tracks, john, you know, millions of people lost their jobs. millions of people lost their homes. millions of people saw their savings -- >> if you look at the lost product in the united states, in other words, the difference between our current economic trajectory and the potential economic trajectory, you're talking about trillions of dollars. and those dollars are jobs and output and so forth and on so. i mean we over leveraged. and that was because we were creating mortgages so as to sell them into the market. and we're creating them from customers who probably should not have been borrowing. they didn't know what they were originating, didn't know who was buying it, and they didn't care. they were getting paid commissions along the way. and