representative called cheney dick cheney had was it was general scowcroft there who just quit being the national security advisor for reagan are pretty you know and civil less than having their shrimp cocktail right and box in a pretty good cocktail so so general scowcroft i don't know are says you know on tuesday the successor admiral poindexter sest if i before congress and i would tell him if i were telling him and i will be advising him. then we should tell tell them that we never told ronald reagan anything about iran contra now kerry not used to this company see drops is for it shatters the last ice little just crystal thing and and without thinking he says joe scowcroft. we aren't doing it correctly you would bite your success should perjure himself to congress now. this is sad about what it is like and our bet was probably about a half a minute and then that it is weak for his arm around him and he said now sometimes you have to do what's best for the country that it and that i'm not bad. this is just gentlemanly banter. or else i'm not and there aren't that truly you have a lot

scowcroft is personally ambivalent, and uncertain. he is uncertain as to whether to say, we are all set now. this is good. he is suspicious. baker, less so. >> i understand that. i guess what gorbachev would have liked is a summit sooner than 1989 and expected one sooner, and reagan after all had one in december '87 and june of '88 and december of '88 tha. that is what a partnership looks like even ap bart from tart fro specific tas ys that you accomp so in that sense -- and will start always loom very large and in a way your comment or bob's that we don't pay enough attention to cfe and conventional weapons only underlines the fact that that is the way we operate? we do pay attention to strategic nuclear weapons. a start agreement if it had been reached in '89 would have been very big. james and i talked the other day about what the obstacles were to that on both sides. i am not an expert on that. i concede it. i guess it was very difficult. again, leaving aside what thatcher did or didn't do, what he is saying is the big point. that

bill properly points out the geathers position and scowcroft. this is where written sources, it is a challenge for historians. as i told you separately, baker had to crush gates a couple times on this. that tells you something. gates wanted to give a speech that pointed out some of the cautionary stuff. baker we first watered it down and basically said, i don't want this speech delivered at all. brent, by nature, was cautious on this. i remember many times where baker would come back and say these guys just don't know what my friends wants. >> >> my friend, gorbachev? >> bush. bush is a very competitive man. he is a gentlemen. he is an extremely competitive man. he did not want to be seen as standing on the sidelines while gorbachev was framing the global context. you asked, is europe important? it really does come down, as phil framed it nicely, there was a view in the schultz state department, which ridgeway represented, that a divided europe was fine. yes, the bush administration really did feel, and i can give you an example of this. in febr