where the unions are simply trade- based or other ones that operate across industry, like--like i'm an seiu member, for example, right? or are they just sort of anachronistic, sort of workers' vanguard spectacles that we can just kind of throw aside? >> good. wonderful question. let me try to answer. and again, rather than my spinning out my own thoughts about that, let me start from a concrete example. the steelworkers union here in the united states, one of the largest unions in the afl-cio, here, stunned the world of american labor two years ago when they issued a press release announcing the formal alliance-- i'll use their words--the formal alliance between the steelworkers union of the united states, which--i don't know how many members it has, but in the hundreds of thousands, big union--with mondragon, the corporate--that huge, successful worker's self-directed enterprise in spain. and i remember many of us were taken aback. "what an interesting idea. an alliance." what did it mean? well, the details were hard to come by. it seems as though there was discussion, obviously, between t