the legal argument by both is that complying with the subpoenas carries the risk of self incrimination. governor christie says he knew nothing about the plot's planning or execution. nbc news correspondent michael isikoff is in trenton, new jersey. set the stage for us, what are we expecting inside that courtroom this morning? >> reporter: first of all, all eyes will be on bridget kelly, she is in that courtroom. this is, in fact, her first public appearance since she was fired by governor christie and essentially called a liar. she's not going to testify. she won't be speaking, but there is an interesting legal argument going on. this is not about whether or not she and bill stepien have the right not to testify. they had that right under the fifth amendment. this is a question about whether they have to respond to the subpoena and turn over all documents, e-mails, text messages, that they might have in possession regarding those lane closures. now what her lawyers are arguing is that the wording of that subpoena forces kelly and stepien to decide for themselves what e-mails and text

issues raised today is whether key witnesses could use their fifth amendment right against self-incriminationo refuse to comply with a request for documents in their possession. judge jacobson asked for further legal analysis to be submitted. joining me, criminal defense attorney brian wice, a former special prosecutor. that's the first question. maybe i was naive or uninformed. i guess i didn't realize the fifth amendment covered document production. >> no, if we think, chris, for a new york minute that the privilege of self-incrimination protects us against things that incriminate us, we'd be wrong. that does not mean e-mails, text messages, post-it notes or cocktail napkins. the framers of the constitution probably didn't realize in the 21st century more people would find themselves jammed up as a result of things they say via e-mail, text, or any other communication. i think, i've said it on the air before, but i think it bears repeating, the "e" in e-mail, chris, stands for evidence. >> here's the question. how novel a theory is this, and how likely are stepien and kelly to be able to su

her lawyer pleaded with the judge today to allow her full fifth amendment protection against self-incriminationnt she would not have to turn over a single e-mail to the new jersey special legislative committee on the george washington bridge closure which she apparently ordered when she wrote the e-mail, time for some traffic problems in ft. lee. bridget kelly's lawyer used that very e-mail today to show how anything that she turns over could be self-incriminating. >> so i start with this proposition. i do not concede that my client sent this. everybody says, my god. this does it. this is the document. reduce the lanes. okay, so when i look at this document, i look on its face -- on its face does it regard the george washington bridge? nope. on its face, does it regard the reduction of three lanes to one the length of the george washington bridge? no. on its face, does it relate to activities between september 9th and september 12th? no. now, it doesn't on its face. so if i respond hypothetically and turn over this document, i will basically be testifying yes, although it does not on its face r

today her attorney is fighting against self incrimination, arguing kelly cannot be forced to hand overents that include personal e-mails and calendars because the information would, in effect, provide testimony that could be used against her. also in court today, the attorney for governor christie's two campaign managers, bill stepien. stepien is also refusing to turn over subpoena documents. he arguing federal agents have visited his home and talked to people who know him and is, too, citing his fifth amendment rights. the attorney for the state legislature committee that issued the subpoenas is arguing the committee is not on a fishing expedition. >> obviously, ms. kelly is critical to what occurred based on the communications that we presented to your honor that we have. >> but you could grant your immunity and then you have -- then they have their right against self incrimination goes away and we don't have the constitutional issue and you have the right to proceed with your investigation. >> well, that's a -- there's a complicated analysis. >> nbc news national investigative corre

that's what the right against self incrimination really is. i want to sort of correct you on that.other side of this, saying that elijah cummings did not have the right to say exactly what he wanted to say, he didn't have to ask a question, didn't have to say something that maybe issa would approve of, he had the right to say what he wanted to say. >> rick, if i can, because there's been a lot going on at cpac, speakers have been having some fun at the democrats' expense and, of course, president obama is a favorite target. let's take a listen. >> we have a president who believed by the sheer force of his personality he would be able to shape global events. >> under president carter, i want to issue a sincere apology. it is no longer fair to say he was the worst president of this great country in my lifetime. president obama has proven me wrong. >> the president of the united states is treating our constitution worse than a place mat at denny's. >> is this a message, rick, to the democrats, this is what you're going to hear come 2016? >> well, i think there's a lot of things to cri

targeting of conservative groups and refused to testify citing her fifth amendment rights against self incrimination. her lawyer said she would be called before the committee on wednesday and the lawyer has said that lois learner will testify and answer all questions about her involvement in the targeting scandal. >> no word on whether or not that comes on a deal for immunity. >> we have word and that is no. this is because of the facts that they apparently felt they didn't want to risk that she was voted in contempt. there was no deal and answer all questions according to issa's conversation with the lawyer. >> that's fascinating news. glad we could report it. let me ask you about mike rogers. he answered the question that many are asking. what options does the u.s. have and what should we do? >> what's really interesting in the interview, he said that vladimir putin is playing geopolitical chess. barack obama is playing marbles. a much weaker game. this happened in iran and happened in syria. now it's happened in ukraine. putin is not afraid of barack obama and therefore feels emboldened to take m

today bridget kelly's attorney argued for her fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination.turn over subpoenaed documents which include personal e-mails and calendars because the information would provide testimony which could be used against her. >> since the time this subpoena was issued, we have received even more e-mails for which mr. kelly or mr. stepien are on and text messages. so it's not an inference. it's a knowledge at this point that they are on a considerable number of communications related to these issues. >> the lawyer for former christie campaign manager, bill stepien, was also in court. stepien did not appear today. stepien was set to be the state gop chair before the scandal broke. the argument by both parties is that complying with the subpoenas carries the risk of self-incrimination. let's bring in david corn, mother jones washington bureau chief and msnbc political analyst. david, good to have you with us tonight. >> good to be with you, ed. >> you bet. it doesn't seem like bridget kelly or bill stepien have something to hide by withholding e-mails and

it comes to the constitution, we all, you and everybody in this room, have a right against self-incrimination , period. any of us can assert that in the appropriate forum. asserted, she has a right to do that. that is the constitution. that's all i'm saying. you may argue with that and you way or another -- any way or another. as i said to my committee, i respect the constitution. without the constitution, i would not be standing here. >> can you talk more about the four response to this? there was a resolution or something filed. privilege so -- privilege resolution was filed because of the abuse of process. by chairman i said. if this house of representatives is going to function as it should in a democracy, people have to abide by the rules. and rules are designed to ensure a democratic process. are designed- they to make sure all the people's views are represented. and when you violate those rules, you are locking up democracy and that is what happened. in order to make sure that we keep the norm of condit in the house of representatives, in order to protect the democratic process, it is

over and over and over again, lois lerner pleading the fifth and exercising her right against self incriminatione were not playing a loop. they were separate moments. and if the profiling drags on will it impact the midterms. kristin powers is a fox news contributor and david world-wide web is a talk radio shows and a fox news contributor. kristern let me start wu. lois lerner if she is a woman with the answers and refusing to testify, do you think it will impact the midterms? >> i don't think this in particular will impact. i think what has impact it feeds in a broader narrative that people don't trust the government and the conjectory is less and less trust every year and you know, this it preceded president obama and continued on his watch. and this feeds in the narrative that the people don't feel the government is accountable or trustworthy and adds to a narrative that exists and hurts the party in power. >> in her infamous apology that was a deceptive set up on may 10th. lois lerner said it is just rogue line people in cincinnati. documents now prove otherwise, that coast to coast officers

bridget kelly appears in court, she said violating the subpoenas would violate her right of self-incriminationthe committee is investigating whether the governor's office averted the george washington bridge as a political revenge. >>> a man called president obama the antichrist and threatened to shoot him at the white house. he's been sentenced prison and fine. >>> the drama of a stranded rock climber. a 23-year-old hiker fell nearly 40 feet bouncing off one ledge before landing on another. a black hawk helicopter flew in to as rescue him. hhas critical injuries including broken bones. >> that's the thing you see in movies. thank you. >> reporter: thank you. >> for years pennsylvania judges put kids behind bars. we're going to b to be. plan >> so far, so good. >> we wish you the best on the film. thank you for being here. i haven't seen t but the trailer looks really good. >> it won't disappoint. >> okay. a woman abandoned as a newborn inside of a fast food restaurant has been on a search. maria? >> reporter: katherine was dubbed the burr der king baby. she was found 27 years ago wrapped up i

stepien finds himself, violates the person's right against self-incrimination.hat is your response? >> fifth amendment is one hand, a simple piece of law, but very complicated. there's no testimony involved here what the committee is looking for. dolts that had been created by bill stepien and we need that information in order to get to the basic answers, why this was done and how this abuse of power could have happened. we don't have those answers, but the very people withholding the documents may have the answers to those questions. >> do you feel you will not get those documents from those two people? >> well, we're in the middle of a court battle. i'm confident in the position our attorneys put forward and i think ultimately, we'll get information we need. >> will it impair your investigation if you don't get it? >> it won't impair it. i think that we have a legitimate right to get documents that were created, especially those by bridgette kelly, by a government employee, using her personal e-mail account. i think the committee has a right to see those comme

former campaign manager bill stepien they argue complying with the subpoenas carry the risk of self-incrimination>> you cannot go into a person and ask him to incriminate himself. >> i don't think because you're a state employee you lose any constitutional rights. >> reporter: the attorneys argued over the terms of the subpoenas, the law for state investigator said team christie's idea of a valid subpoena is no subpoena at all. >> i didn't hear anybody articulate what a valid subpoena would be in this case. nobody. because they don't want there to be a valid subpoena. >> with no decision issued today, the judge asked the lawyer representing the state super committee, the folks investigating this whole mess, the judge asked them for more information regarding their authority to grant immunity. kelly's attorney suggested granting her immunity would help loosen the release of those subpoenaed documents but questions remain what super powers the committee holds. the judge said she would issue a ruling on the subpoenas, quote, sooner than later. joining me is nbc news national investigative correspond

e-mails and documents would violate her constitutional rights, including the right to avoid self-incrimination. >> they're basically requiring us to incriminate ourselves by asking us to turn over these types of documents and give the testimony of communications that go with the active reduction in and that is unconstitutional. >> governor chris christie has denied involvement or even knowledge of his aides plot to close the bridge lanes. the controversy has threatened his prospects for the republican presidential nomination in 2016. "the new york times" reports the chris christie administration used salvage scraps of metal from the 9/11 wreckage of the world trade center as gifts to new jersey mayors who endorsed his reelection. republican david jolly has won the year's first congressional race, special election in florida to fill the seat vacated by the death of congressmember bill young. jolly defeated democrat alex sink by under 4000 votes. republican groups have flooded the campaign with millions and outside spending in a bid to cast a vote as a referendum on obamacare ahead of the midter

the fact is lois lerner has a perfect right to take the fifth amendment to avoid self incrimination,he rest of us have the perfect right to draw rational inferences to what she's done. >> let's turn to the ugly scene between darrell issa and elijah cummings. here's a taiste of it. >> what is your question? >> let me say what i have to say. i've listened to you for the last 15 to 20 minutes. >> ms. lerner, you're released. >> you can see the picture there. how common is that where you see the chairman sweeping his finger across the throat and cutting off the microphone. and did he deserve the reprimand? >> i have never seen that, and yes, he did deserve the reprimand. and yes, he did apologize. to george's point, this is a good time for congress to investigate this. yes, there are a lot of issues out there about what the irs did or didn't do to conservatives and maybe to others as well. but elijah cummings is a trainered prosecutor. he had his right, the 15 minutes or whatever the time was under house rules to ask his questions. and i should have been able to ask them. hopefully now c

key witnesses have refused to cooperate with our investigation or asserted their rate against self-incrimination and some questioned the impartiality of the report since it was by a law firm chosen by chris christie himself and the maestro behind the report is randy mastro raising a lot of questions as well. this isn't the last word on the subject. there's already an investigation underway by the new jersey legislature and federal investigation that is ongoing. so what is this all mean for chris christie and new jersey? let's go to steve kornacki, who has been on this story for the very beginning. pleasure to have you. always appreciate your insight on this. >> sure. >> first the big picture on this, do you find this report to be at all significant in the chris christie story? >> it's significant but i think there's sort of two ways of looking at it. one if you looked at the press conference and trappings of like this is the independent investigation and they are going to release findings, i don't think -- it's not fair to understand it that way this is a law firm that is simultaneously as it is

. >> but you could grant her immunity then they have their right against self-incrimination goes away and we don't have the constitutional issue and you have the right to proceed with your investigation. >> well, that's a -- that's a complicated analysis, your honor. one, what -- yes? >> under the statute, the committee has the explicit right to grant immunity. >> the committee has explicit right to grant immunity for testimony. it shouldn't be that the committee has to grant immunity in order to get documents that otherwise are rightfully within their power to request. >> fascinating. okay. the two people at the very, very center of this scandal, the two people who we know of who are directly connected to this so far are bridget kelly who sent "time for some traffic problems in ft. lee," and the guy who received that e-mail and replied "got it," david wildstein. when david wildstein was called to testify before the legislature, he invoked his fifth amendment rights as well, but his attorney said specifically if he were granted immunity, he would talk. well, today we heard a similar l

as we discussed on this show there is no fifth amendment privilege against self-incrimination with regards write in documents. there are some exceptions. here you have a difficult case. and you've got a very good job in mary jacobson. it's going to be a difficult case for stepien and kelly because as we've said before these are presumably government documents. the government knows about the history of criminal can activity stepien and kelly have been involved in and they presumably know the documents exist. if kelly and stepien were to say there's an entirely new angle the government doesn't know about and there are documents that indicate and back up there is an entirely new angle that the government knows nothing about, they may have a claim. i think that's a steep hill for them to climb and i think the likelihood is that judge jacobson will consider these individual documents on a case-by-case basis with a pretty skeptical eye. so they may get one or two thrown out, but i see the government, the legislative committees for the most part prevailing. >> alfred doblin and julian epstein, th

. >> do you tell them they have right against self-incrimination. you say. no you just fill it out.e constitution. >> i don't think the supreme court will rule your way congressman. i could be wrong on that. it's a voluntary thing. we are not forcing anybody to fill out anything. they want our money. >> they can't benefit if they don't fill it out. >> congressman kucinich, everyone. miller on the missing airliner. the pot vs. tobacco debate and the update on the ferocious cat on oregon that got miller and me in lot of trouble. miller is next. are you still sleeping? just wanted to check and make sure that we were on schedule. the first technology of its kind... mom and dad, i have great news. is now providing answers families need. siemens. answers. iwe don't back down. we only know one direction: up so we're up early. up late. thinking up game-changing ideas, like this: dozens of tax free zones across new york state. move here. expand here. or start a new business here... and pay no taxes for 10 years. with new jobs, new opportunities and a new tax free plan. there's only one way f

both legal teams trying to squash the subpoenas because they say they self-incriminate their clients. we'll keep you posted on all of this. across america, people like basketball hall of famer dominique wilkins, are taking charge of their type 2 diabetes with non-insulin victoza. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar, but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza. he said victoza works differently than pills, and comes in a pen. and the needle is thin. victoza is an injectable prescription medicine that may improve blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes when used with diet and exercise. it is not recommended as the first medication to treat diabetes and should not be used in people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. victoza has not been studied with mealtime insulin. victoza is not insulin. do not take victoza if you have a personal or family history of medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if you are allergic to victoza or any of its ingredients. symptoms of a serious allergic reaction may include

. >> the fact is lois lerner has the perfect right to take the fifth amendment to avoid self-incriminationnd the rest of us have the per fegt right to draw rational inferences for what she's done. >> let's turn to the ugly scene between chairman darrell issa and the top demgs on the committee elijah cummings. been playing it throughout the show. here's just a taste of it. >> what is your question? >> i'm going -- no, let me say what i have to say. i've listened to you for the last 15 or 20 minutes. let me say what i have to say. i have one procedural -- >> miss lerner, you're released. >> congresswoman harman, you were in congress for 17 years, and you can see the picture there. how -- how common is that where you see the chairman sweeping his finger across his throat and cutting off the microphone, and did he deserve the reprimand that the democrats unsuccessfully called for? >> i have never seen that, and, yes, he did deserve the reprimand and yes, he did apologize. to george's point, this is a good time for congress to investigate this. yes, there are a lot of issues out there about wha

they are resisting the request to disclose those documents on the argument that it could be self-incriminatingor them. this is something, there's a legal basis for this claim. it was established in a supreme court case during the investigation of a clinton administration justice department official who got into trouble. they are making the argument that the legislative committee should grant immunity to them or they should not have to turn over the documents. the judge is going to take arguments from both sides and we are expected to get a ruling in a few weeks. meantime, we had the disclosure in the "new york times" this morning that chris christie's aides on the port authority had orchestrated a rise in tolls that allowed christie to appear to be opposing them while actually trying to make them happen which is what i meant by saying that this story does not get any better for chris christie. >> it certainly doesn't. being a resident of new jersey, i can tell you, it's the top headline almost every day. thank you very much. appreciate it. >>> let's switch gears a little bit. in the battle of

stepien and bridget kelly say complying with subpoenas from state legislators carries the risk of self-incrimination. kelly was fired back in january after e-mails emerged linking her to the orchestrated lane closings at the george washington bridge, apparently as political payback. governor christie has denied any involvement. >>> breaking overnight, congress now demanding answers from general motors about why it took the automaker nearly a decade to recall some 1.6 million vehicles with faulty ignition switches that have been linked to some 13 deaths now. the head of house energy and commerce committee say they plan to investigate and hold hearings on the slow recall. gm, in the meantime, has hired its own lawyers to lead what they call an internal investigation. >>> happening right now, these are live pictures of the senate floor, where more than two dozen senate democrats pulling an all-nighter in an effort to get congress to wake up to the danger of global warming. it's not any kind of filibuster. the senators concede that right now a climate bill would almost certainly fail. the marathon speec

she has a right to invoke the fifth amendment against self incriminal nation, however, some believe that lerner waived that right. or is it more about ethics, you work for the people, now speak to the people. >> i think its he more the former. when she first arrived in congress to talk about the alleged targeting, she gave a 20 minutewhen she first arrived in congress to talk about the alleged targeting, she gave a 20 minute preamble defending herself. after that, she refused to testify. republicans assessed the situation and decided that that meant contempt of congress because she already started talking and then she decided to clam up. so i think that is the main argument here. when she returned again last week, she invoked the fifth amendment once again. again there is that outstanding issue. we also heard last week the speaker of the house say that he believes if she in-s to keep her silence, that she should face contempt charges. so i think it could very well happen in congress. the question is if congress decides to hold her in contempt -- if the house decide, rather, which they we

committee and in response to questions from the chairman invoked her amendment right against self-incrimination. martha: just to remind -- elijah couple cans very upset. darrell issa says she is taking the fifth and we are done. elijah cummings is continuing. >> the very first line ... let's listen to darrell issa. >> we had a hearing today in the committee in which we asked miss learner whose lawyer indicated under certain conditions she would testify. she chos testify. after an exhaustive 7 questions i determined that she was not under any circumstances going to testify. and pursuant to an already completed hearing other than her testimony, i adjourned. at this point we'll continue our investigation into the irs targeting of conservative groups. without the testimony of miss lerner. are there any questions? there were no -- he was not directing questions for the witness. and th the committee had already adjourned. pursuant to the committee we recessed only to determine whether or not we could get her to give testimony. once it was determined she would not give testimony there was no question

when it comes to the constitution, we all have a right for self-incrimination. period. all the certainty proper form. can assert that in the proper forum. you may argue with that. time, and i have said to my committee, i read that the constitution. -- respect the constitution. without the constitution, i would not a standing here. >> can you talk more about the response to this? there was a resolution or something that was filed. quite a privilege resolution was filed the of the egregious violation of the house rules and the visa process by chairman issa. if we're going to function as we should in a democracy, people have to abide by the rules. the rules are designed to ensure democratic office. -- process. rules,u violate those you are walking out on democracy. that is what happened. to make sure we keep the normal conduct in the house of representatives, in order to protect the democratic rock it is-- process, important to hold people accountable when they violate the. -- rules. out that there are some republican members of the house who think that the president sees

when it comes to the constitution, we all, you and everyone in this room have a right against self-incrimination -- period. in theus can assert that appropriate forum. once that is asserted, she has a right to do that. you may argue with that one way or another. i wish she would testify. not the same time, as i said to my committee, i respect the constitution. without the constitution, i would not be standing here. >> can you talk more about the formal response to this? there was a resolution or something that was filed. >> the privilege resolution was filed because of the egregious violation of the house rules and the abuse of process by chairman issa. if the house of representatives is going to function as it should in a democracy, people have to abide by the rules. the rules are enshrined to ensure a process and make sure that all of the people's fuels arerepresented and when you violating those rules you are violating this. in order to keep this in order to protect democratic process, it is really important to hold them accountable. you asked the earlier question about legislation. i would j

they have refused to hand over documents citing self- incrimination. christie fired both aides when he found out they knew about the decision to shut down the lanes of the washington bridge. >>> the nsa will not be allowed to destroy phone records it collected, at least until the middle of next week. the nsa was ordered to keep telephone surveillance records considered evidence in an invasion of privacy lawsuit. the agency collected those records more than five years ago. a san francisco federal judge ordered the nsa to hold onto the records and said the deadline could be extended further after next week's hearing. >>> san francisco's fire department is planning to ask ed lee for an extra $10 million in funding. firefighters say money will pay for ten new ambulances and 43 extra paramedics. the department says right now, they can't always send a paramedic on all of its 911 calls. it says right now, it's not meeting a state mandated goal or responding to 80% of medical calls. >>> we're still getting reports of aftershocks following the 6.9 earthquake ne

implying carries the risk of self-incrimination. >>> this morning president barack obama designates 1700s a national monument, part of the administration's national resource conservation initiative. he'll head to the big apple to raise money for new york democrats. >>> the sled race just wrapping up in alaska. poor conditions this year, little snow. 27-year-old dallas seed coming out on top in the 1,000 mile race, his second title in three years. we always update the five things. go to cnn.com for the latest. >>> i want to take you to south africa for the murder trial. pistorius's defense worked to discredit his friend fresco after he told prosecutors about two incidents involving pistorius and guns. robin has been following each and every development from the courthouse in petoria. good morning again. >> reporter: hi there. good morning. oscar pistorius more composed today than yesterday as he heard not just the testimony of his former friend but of the state pathologist. >> the pathologist that conducted the autopsy on oscar 's girlfriend talked about details so photographic the jouj h