they feel like kyrsten sinema, senator sinema and senator manchin, though they're occupying the sameght now, and are both holding this up, they can deal with senator manchin. and senator manchin is a commodity that president biden and his team understands. they do not know what senator sinema wants or how to deal with her, or her staff. and that is at the core of what the problem is right now. she is, you know, in the words, in the language of chemistry, she's a free radical at this point. and that one free radical has messed up all the variables, equations, and physics of the chemistry that has supposed to lead to a vote tomorrow that nancy pelosi was betting on when she decoupled the two bills this week. but those senators are not there tonight. and i don't think they'll be there tomorrow either. >> and adam, you know what a challenge it is, there's no one in the sinema office you can call. there's not someone there who can talk sense to anyone, including senator sinema. >> that's right. you know, and what senator sinema has done as a freshman senator has been to put herself at the

sinema's career.ed the rights and politics, as a member of the green party, in the supporting rough meter. and now she has become supposedly a very conservative democrat. i think it's a little bit hard to credit the substance of that, ship that's being clearly about principle. i think that to john's point about arizona being a purplish they, that you sort of heavy control case, here in senator mark kelly, her fellow senator from arizona, who is doing very well in her zone from backing president biden's agenda. cinema is doing worse by just about every measure. by taking this position. so it seems like she is sort of putting the erratic miss of her position first and sort of in this desire to be front and center. ahead of policy ahead of principle and responsibility. and ahead of good politics when you get done to the brexit that's because kelley is being better. then she is >> and adam and john heilemann, thank you both for joining us. tonight >> thank you. learns >> coming up the breaking news of the

would she ever vote for sinema? probably not, she says.the people that have had enough are laying ground work for a primary challenge. one progressive organizer involved telling nbc news there's still time for senator sinema to change course. with me, msnbc national reporter sahil kapur. you wrote that piece on what could be a primary threat against senator sinema. talk to us about that and what you're hearing from sinema's end of things. she seems to be as evidence of some of what we played wholly unconcerned with the sort of press impression she may be giving off. >> reporter: that's right, hallie. there are a couple of demands democrats are making of sinema. first, that she support a progressive and robust reconciliation bill. they're quick to point out tt president biden's agenda, they say she shouldn't stand in the way of getting the president's agenda enacted. the other demand that the progressive democrats are making is that she flip her position on the filibuster, support abolishing the 60 vote rule that would enable democrats to p

i don'know what is going on with sinema. of the read of the difference between them right now? >> i think you've got it exactly right. does seem to me at least publicly senator manchin has articulated his concerns with the legislation and is actively working to try to negotiate. i think he wants to get to yes, and my conrn about senator sinema, apar from the fundraising which i tnk is very, very problematic,ne of the reasons we need the for the people act to pass, but if you look at the voters in arizona, this is orwhelmingly supported by a majority of voters in arizona. and among democrats, also her constituents, the numbers are in the 90s in terms of support for the build back better agenda. so it is the president's agenda and i'm concerned about any senator, democratic senator, who would put on the line to possibly tank t president's agenda because it effecvely takes democrats out of the running for the majority in the house and in the sate. it's very problematic. >> yeah, polling on sinema is fascinating, new polling dat

the question is what does kirsten sinema want? there seems to be a refusal to say what she wants that leads them to this position. usually in these scenarios writing legislative language happens literally minutes before a final bill is passed, so that seems like a bit of a stretch as a possibility. >> that's an interesting point you make, because let's see if that changes over the next 24 hours. they wanted a legislative bill, the way it's written so everybody could read it. that could be the wiggle room there, but you mentioned senator sinema. three times at the white house yesterday, and aides are coming to her turf to negotiate more with her today. they're going through what do you want in the bill, and then add it up. how much does it cost? no. what do you want the cost to be? they're going back and forth. this is ro khaana, a key member of the progressives, saying why does one senator get to hold up everything? >> this is the entire democratic party against joe biden and kyrsten sinema. i don't think she knows what she wants,

democratic senators kirstyrsten sinema and joe manchin. >> have kyrsten sinema come to my district andis. have her come and meet with those that sleep on the street. have her come and meet with those who have to go to the food pantry once a month and still don't have enough food to make it through the month. >> and congresswoman cori bush of missouri joins me now. congresswoman, thank you so much for your time. i know it's a super busy day on capitol hill. we've been looking forward to talking to you, particularly since we found out what joe manchin wants. he has put out some details. i'll put those up for our viewers. he wants the top line on that build back better plan to be $1.5 trillion, in other words, not $3.5 trillion. he wants to begin debate october 1st, so, not today be the deadline. he wants to block any funds from this reconciliation bill being used until the covid relief funds are exhausted and then a corporate tax rate of 25% at the top line, top individual tax rate, 39.6%. what does this change for you? >> this is absolutely absurd. we are talking about people's lives an

what exactly is senator kyrsten sinema up to? and how could ted cruz embrace himself at a hearing he did not even attend. we will explain when all i starts right now. >> good evening from n york i'm chris hayes, if you are watcng the show you are probably the kind of person who gets fund raising emails from politicians and political groups. you know th genre well most likely, we need your help to fight for methinyou care about, click here to donate now. and the poi of this fund raising, particularly the o thathappens over email and xt these days is to reach in and activate your emotions. ople who send out those emails and text, they are constantly pressing a whole bunch of different buttons to see at gets a reaction. they can measure d monitor it. and that explains lot owhat happens in politic on asleep, a trickle early i would say on the right. because conservative pioneered this for decades. a huge part of that movement, usually kind of breakthrough discovery, has essentially been a kind of beefed udirect mail marketing drug, i

it's arizona's kyrsten sinema. now at the center of the negotiations and essentially in control of whether biden's agenda will live or die. we'll take a closer look at the marathon-running, barrier breaking moderate. >>> plus cnn visited musicians shutting down in fear of a pending ban on music. stay with us. >>> welcome to "the lead." i'm jake tapper. our politics lead and the state of negotiations on capitol hill changing seemingly by the minute. the two massive democratic priorities still hanging in the balance. today white house staff is meeting with moderate arizona senator kyrsten sinema for the fourth time in the last day. trying to figure out exactly what centrists such as she need to support the large spending bill that will expand social safety net programs such as medicare and child care. progressives want an agreement with sinema and west virginia senator joe manchin by tomorrow or they will tank the bipartisan infrastructure bill. manchin telling cnn's manu raju, no way is it going to be ready by then.

krysten sinema is a policy wonk. she has spreadsheets.ooking at kirch kinds of policies in reconciliation, how much they cost. joe manchin is looking at the 30,000-foot vul. he has six or 7 over-arching goals. he wants the opposing sides to get into a room. they're different in how they work with their states. joe manchin is the son of west virginia. and someone told me, everyone has his cell phone in west virginia. i asked 134 people, random people, that i didn't know-- three of them did have joe manchin's cell phone, and about 60 of them said, "i know someone who has joe manchin's cell phone." his greatest influence comes from his state, and that's something to know. >> woodruff: the other thing that we need to say about these two individuals is what they face in terms of the election. they are both up in 2024. what are the political calculations at this moment looking ahead? >> desjardins: krysten sinema is from a purple state, where there are very sort of fractured divides politically. there is a big question for both of those lawmake

kyrsten sinema could be a nonconform mist.ular governor in west virginia. governors tendo be soloists. manchin by temperament, by personality might be more comfortae in that groove. thirdly, this is where i would bring in the watergate movie, all the president's men, follow the money. furaising i think is very important here. theeality is that modete democrats cannot fund raise nationally online the way progressives do. they simply cannot raise the money online the way somebody like aoc or bernie sanders is able to do. >> yeah. >> what they feel, their only avenue to raising money is through relty donors, in some cases through corporate interests. that is the only way they feel they c be competitive in these very difficult districts. that is a crucial piece why they behave the way they do. >> a great point. you talk about manchin wanting to be a singular force. he didn't just hit fox news whic might make sense for west virginia, or hit two channels, he hit them all on sunday which chris wells pointed out. take a look. >> you a

he has that meeting with manchin a sinema.s been frustrated by not being able to get any kind of results out of them. this really is a moment where presidents do have to leave. it is unclear exactly what leverage he might have over manchin and sinema, who see themselves as the corporate free agents, but whatever stops he needs to pull out he needs to do it now. because not only does it threaten his majority of congress in 2022, but it threads the ability for democrats to win the white house in 2024. amy: juan, we're looking at the biden agenda today and i would ask you something about "the washington post" reported on today on puerto rico's medicaid funding. quietly the biden administration interpreted language from recent laws providing dollars for the territories medicaid programs. this is the governor of puerto rico speaking in june with members of congress as well as white house officials to discuss the island's medicaid program as -- medicaid program. right now i am in washington, d.c., meeting with members of the congres

i think the democratic party has a manchin and sinema problem. a couple of months ago i was articulating that the hiccup that we have in the democratic party is manchin and sinema. whether or not you're talking about the $3.5 trillion infrastructure package and them standing in the way of child care, et cetera, et cetera, or whether or not you're talking about a prescription drug plan to actually lower the cost of prescription drug prices in this country, which we know does well across party lines, i mean it seems as if kyrsten sinema and joe manchin are stifling the progress of -- let me check my notes -- of democrats. it's the wildest thing that i've seen, and there appears to be no appetite. i know they had a meeting but there really appears to be no appetite to rein the fact that we now have a president joe manchin. >> david, i want you to respond because if you were advising president biden, what would you tell him to do here? because it seems like this is a legislative standoff where neither side wants to blink first. >> listen, i agree wit

sinema came from humble beginnings. she grew up in arizona, poor.nt living in an abandoned gas station. >> thanks to friends and family, my parents' church, and sometimes the government, i made it through. >> reporter: she was raised mormon but after graduating from brigham young university, she left the church. >> do you believe in god? >> you know, i am not a member of any faith community and i think that faith is a deeply personal issue that individuals should deal with in their private lives. >> reporter: at 19 years old, she was briefly married, divorced within a few years. >> just kidding. just kidding. >> reporter: she broke barriers coming to congress as the first out bisexual member but it's never part of her identity that she's dwelled on. at 45 years old, she is a marathoner and tri-athlete. her unique and edgy style from this f off ring to her colorful wigs to this dangerous creature shirt she wore to preside over the senate floor. >> breaking the internet. >> good. >> and white house officials met again today with senator sinema on capi

sinema's diva act.kup from nancy pelosi on reconciliation, sinema's ally told reporters, no dice. >> we have the most important piece of legislation in the last 30 years, which is the bipartisan bill. we have so much in so many ways. why don't you take that and move on and negotiate -- >> progressives don't trust you, sir. they don't trust you'll be with them on the reconciliation bill. >> i negotiate in good faith and trust them to negotiate in good faith. >> a quick refresher. the people that negotiates the infrastructure bill a month ago seem to have things in common. it should come as no surprise the majority of the far more diverse progressive caucus lack trust and still plan on blocking the infrastructure bill. joining me now is congressman ro khanna. thank you for being here. i want you to listen to kyrsten sinema that seems like she's competing with joe mansion to see who will be the most obstructionists. here he is talking about the frustrations of your caucus. >> what do you say that progressi

let's talk about sinema. according to the "new york times" she is reportedly privately told colleagues she will not accept any corporate or income tax rate increases. if that is the case, senator hirono, what is the point of all of this? why are we still acting like this is a group of equals negotiating when they are acting like hostage takers. these bills are dead if she won't agree to a single tax rise. are you one of the colleagues she confided that to? according to "the times"? >> no. but she has obviously confided to people that, you know, now you know about it. i think this would be a really terrible position for krysten to take that she doesn't think everybody should pay their fair share of taxes. we know that the richest people and corporations do not pay their fair share of taxes and that is how joe biden's domestic agenda, which is mine, how that is all going to be paid for. i hope she changes her mind. let's put it that way. we need to hear from both krysten and joe, what parts of the build back be

senator sinema is meeting with key white house officials, senator manchin and sinema meeting in the white house. they're being very mum about what their asks are, what their concerns are and yes, what their top lines are. one of the issues overall is that at least on that broader $3.5 trillion reconciliation package, senator manchin says he doesn't feel any urgency to get that done timing wise. you hear a lot of progressives, senator bernie sanders expressing frustration about the need to get that legislation done as expeditiously as possible. but for those two moderate holdouts, time is not of the urgency right now. they want to take their time and pour over the details and study the rationale for these policies before they agree to an overall agreement in public. >> is that the sticking point, john? do they need more time? would they be able to reach some sort of agreement with the progressives if they just had more time? is nancy pelosi rushing this too much? >> reporter: i'm not sure it's a matter of just time, alisyn but more a matter of finally getting in a room and getting specific

sinema and manchin versus biden and pelosi. but it is important to realize, that's not really what matters in the end. because the main story here that should bother all of us is that the american people are suffering for no good reason. they've been gas lighted. why is it that the u.s. is the only industrialized country that cannot guarantee health care or child care or family leave for its citizens? now you have even top democrats in congress supposedly centrist, moderates, realists, saying sorry, america. you can't have what everyone else has. i'm sorry but they're lying to you. we can afford $3.5 trillion over ten years. we can afford to tax the super rich. we can afford to guarantee basic rights and living standards to the people of this country. 11 senators including bernie sanders released a statement earlier this week demanding the passage of not just part but all of the biden agenda reading in part, we voted for the infrastructure bill with the clear commitment that the two pieces of the package would move together. ab

i think some people actually have different beliefs. >> i don't know senator sinema. i know congressman josh gottheimer very well. i worked for him for years. he is a very principled guy. he may not agree with congresswoman omar. that doesn't make either a bad person. there is so much animosity between the moderates and the left. the moderates will say we lost a lot of good members because of the defund the police nonsense. they're right. you talk to the progressives and they say they're all just horrible, corporate people. they have to get beyond that and listen. joe manchin is not for all the taxes but is for a lot of them. he wants the rich to pay more. senator sinema needs to know politically that is the most unavailable piece of this. people like free stuff but when you sit and watch these cash tronauts flying stupid spaceships into outer space and my mom pays more tax than they do? i can sell that in a campaign in arizona, senator. >> sure. it is popular when you poll to raise the top tack bracket from 37% to 39.6%. that is, that polls well. but it doesn't neces

it's been hours of staff meetings with senator sinema. my colleague kaitlan collins said he spoke to senator manchin by phone. there's been a series of meetings over the last several days and they were expected to continue at least by phone over the course of the morning. one thing to keep in mind when it comes to how the president approaches this moment in time he has implicit trust in speaker please, and he's never going to go in a different direction than she's going. she's made very clear for the morning the direction she's heading and the white house is not going to verge from this point but they are also very clear about where things stand. >> keep us posted if things happen in the hour i hear. with me is politico's heather keagle and margaret tallos of axios and npr's asma hallett. capitol hill is your beat. let's listen to the speaker. first bringing a bill to the floor to keep the government knowing and then bring the infrastructure bill to the floor knowing members of her group will vote no. >> i think we're in a good place. we'

there is that growing heat on senator sinema. take a look, here's where she was today. >> what do you say to progressives who are frustrated, they don't know where you are? >> they're progressives? >> they don't know where you are either. >> i'm clearly right in front of them. >> a quip may get you through an audio interview, but it may not deter the rising anger from liberal colleagues who find catering to one senator insane. and alexandria ocasio-cortez is breaking with usual decorum. she's calling out the concern that sinema may be operating in bad faith, and may ditch the later spending bill once this one passes. >> this is what i said last time. don't play russian roulette with our economy. quote. yet that's exactly what he is doing, playing russian roulette. interesting, russian roulette. >> basically, they're concerned there won't be good faith negotiation, and you could lose the second package. that hangs all over this. your thoughts on that and michelle's points? >> first, i want to say the slight opening that she detect

a deal that is being held up by joe manchin and kyrsten sinema. president joe biden's agenda, the promises he made to the american people, the agenda that got him elected hanging by a thread. and remember, this is all about placating members of his own party. manchin digging in his heels tonight with a statement saying that he won't support the spending bill, and calling it fiscal insanity. and that's got progressive -- progressives steamed. >> i can tell you that his statement has just probably created at least a bunch more votes on the house floor against a bipartisan bill. >> so do you fear that now joe biden's going to end up with nothing? >> he actually called it insanity which is the president's agenda that he is calling insane. so i am not going to comment any more on that statement. i don't think it deserves it. >> so what do manchin and sinema really want? what do they want? what's their end game? progressives are at the point where they are -- they are going on tv and they are begging them to say what they want. >> our two senate democra

manchin and sinema.ey've questioned the white house outreach. you're taking our votes for granted. we have our issues, too. a lot of progressives are saying we're not going to go along with this and that has put the vote in such jeopardy today. the president has stepped up his outreach. i was with him as part of the presidential pool when he went to the congressional baseball park at nats park and spent time in the democratic and republican dugouts. he worked the phones while he was there, some extraordinary footage of he and speaker pelosi in the dugout on the phone at the same time. he even handed out ice cream bars emblazoned with the presidential seal. we'll see if those get any votes. there's also talk today that he may head up to capitol hill. but at the same time some suggestion that he might head home to delaware after the vote which seems like bad optics if part of your legislation is going down to defeat or being pulled for another time. it's true. this doesn't have to get done today. it only g

yesterday was sinema centered drama. what do we know from krysten sinema today? >> not much. she has been even more opaque. there have been concerns about whether she is willing to raise tax rates by any amount, concerns about whether she is flat out opposed as a red line to raising individual tax rates, corporate tax rates. she has not given answers to these questions and also not said what her top line is. so she is a part of the log jam here that is preventing in the eyes of progressive house members at least the infrastructure pill from moving forward. now they've heard a number from manchin and know what they're working with. they want to hear something from her before they can feel comfortable reconciliation will happen. nbc news meanwhile is reporting there are arizona democrats and progressive activists launching what appears to be a serious fundraising drive, an attempt to get a primary challenger to run against krysten sinema when her seat is up in 2024. they accuse her of obstructing the biden agenda. arizona is a state that biden won, elected two democratic senato

we saw that playing out yesterday as senators manchin and sinema shuttled to the white house, sinema several times, once to meet with the president, once to meet with staff. we're expecting her to return to the white house at some point today to meet with the president. and it is important to recognize here today the president was supposed to be traveling to chicago for an event focused on vaccine requirements. instead, white house officials and the president deciding yesterday that the president should stay in town, canceling that trip, one source familiar with the discussions told me that they felt that progress was being made and they decided that they wanted to keep our, quote, big gun in town. that referring to the president and his ability to negotiate on these agreements. so the president's schedule today is actually quite blank in terms of his public schedule and that is by design, to give him the flexibility, to be on the phone with lawmakers, to have lawmakers come to the white house and meet in person. all we know so far is of senator sinema who is expected to come here at

president joe biden has been communicating with manchin and sinema many times. they have actually visited the white house several times this week. he's been on the phone with them. this is not a new relationship he's built with them. they've been talking all year since he entered office. so he's continuing to work that relationship. house speaker pelosi is also dealing with navigating relationships in her own caucus because she can only lose three votes. parts of the problem here is that i did not mention earlier is that progressives will not support the bipartisan infrastructure bill on the house floor until there is a commitment from manchin and sinema on what the top line number is going to be on the economic bill because they are opposed to the $3.5 trillion price tag. so house speaker pelosi is trying to navigate these relationships with progressives because she wants their vote for the bipartisan infrastructure bill that is supposed to be on the floor today. again, i do want to make that point that house speaker pelosi is not going to put a bill on the flo

i don't think it deserves it. >> what do mansion and sinema want? progressives are at the point they're going on tv and begging them to say what they want. >> our two senate democrats who have done a good job of ar articulating what they're against have so far kept a secret what they're for. >> if someone won't show you their cards, you don't know what you're doing and that's the real problem. we need them to do their jobs. >> literally one senator, one senator kyrsten sinema is holding up the will of the democratic party. the president keeps begging tell us what you want. >> what do you want? why won't they say? did that senator layout where she stands and what she wants? nope. kyrsten sinema who met with white house officials four times in two days is just stone walling her own party. >> progressives that are frustrated and don't know where you are. >> that's why i said what i said to chris. this is an issue democrats are supposed to be working on together. instead, two senators holding their own party hostage. all this as congress has to act befo

kasie, what is the end game here for senator sinema? this is familiar territory for joe manchin who represents a very red state. but arizona is purplish/red and her fellow arizonan mark kelly is not doing this. what is she trying to do? >> he's not. he's the one facing election again, re-election in a short period of time. certainly the democrats i've talked to have been pretty frustrated with sinema and frankly moderates and prifgs and her fellow senators because i think they think she seems to want to step into the spotlight and isn't willing to be clear on what she wants. until there's a little more clarity, it's, i don't think, going to become clear. she wants to be a player. manchin, i talked to him about this and he's clearly seems personally frustrated. but this statement is newsy in that it lays down the line and says to speaker pelosi, hey, the ball is in your court. i'm not going to give you the agreement you asked for before tomorrow when you say you'll have a vote. you have to decide, are you going to lay out that gauntlet o

the message that senator sinema told president biden was essentially, i'm not there yet. there is more work to do. that's why you see a staff follow-up and such an urgent action from the white house that even if the bill fails, this is far from over. it's clear how necessary this is for the president's entire agenda. they want to hit that deadline, and in order to do that, they need some kind of framework they can show progressives from senators manchin and sinema. >> thank you, phil mattingly and lauren fox. >>> when we come back we'll speak with a house democrat in the middle of all of this. he's in the middle of the progressive caucus. stay with us at this hour. trillions of dollars is what we're talking about and trickle down benefits for millions of americans. what can this actually buy? what's at stake here, tom? >> it can buy a lot if it has a chance to, the question is will it? the key bills at stake here, this is a traffic jam, a collision, between the infrastructure bill at 3.5 million, the debt suspension, all of this happening at once is the problem. look at t

with sinema, she won't answer questions about it. they say, she believes, she wants the build back better plan to happen this year. and she's gotten tons of attention. she met with biden yesterday. his aides two other times. white house officials went to her to negotiate on the hill. four times in 48 hours. and all they can say is, our sense is, she's in favor of the bill at some point. really? listen to her dodge questions. >> what do you say about progressives are frustrated and don't know where you are. >> i'm in the senate. >> i'm in the senate? that's the answer? when do democrats act like that? what do you want, senator? it's weird. the build back better act, let's remember why this is dicey for her. expand the child tax credit, big arizona. medical coverage, big arizona. housing community college more affordable, everywhere. all of these things are very popular everywhere, especially in arizona. the issue is the price tag. $3.5 trillion. okay. so, sinema and manchin say they won't support the price tag as is. okay. give anothe

kristin sinema and senator manchin are holding the cards. and i will have two big interviews this hour, dr. anthony fauci joining me for the latest on boosters and covid cases. plus cases in the nba. and also bob woodward for the talk that his new book is causing on capitol hill. first, garrett haake, peter alexander. moderator of "washington week," and ashley parker. garrett, there is so much in the air this hour. nancy pelosi to me looked a little tentative to me like "this is not a done deal." >> oh, it is clear that this is far from a done deal. i spent a lot of time talking to house progressives saying they're right where they have been the whole time on this. they don't want to move forward on the infrastructure vote until they get at least a serious assurance that the senate will move on reconciliation. they're trying clearly to get to yes. but they're getting nothing back from the senate, and they're increasingly frustrated at joe manchin and kristin sinema. talking about the things they want to be different in this bill. i tried to

kyrsten sinema is -- kyrsten sinema is in a state that biden carried.mark kelly, who has higher popularity ratings, he's totally board with the agenda. and sinema is out there saying she doesn't want to raise even a dime of taxes on the wealthy? on multimillionaires. in my district, i am saying raise their taxes but we don't know what she wants. it's -- it's really odd. >> all right. so, pramila jayapal is head of the progressive caucus in the house has said that she will not vote for the bipartisan infrastructure plan unless there is a deal or also a vote on the larger reconciliation bill. where are you on that? if nancy pelosi, as promised, brings the infrastructure plan to a vote by itself on thursday, are you a yes or a no? >> i'm a no, as are about 40 or 50 other members. but i don't think the president, frankly, wants that. i mean, no one at the white house has said go vote for an infrastructure bill without the rest of the president's agenda that helps the working class and tackles climate. and they have been very happy that we are willing to neg

it's arizona's kyrsten sinema.rol of whether biden's agenda will live or die. we'll take a close

joe manchin and kyrst sinema made that clear.tell us, bring us together to figure out what the end product is actually going to look like. but the president feels like, listen, i'm the president. i know the process. i know there is all this wrangling, whining, and concern, but at the end of the day, i think i'm going to get a big package. i believe in nancy pelosi's ability to deliver the votes, and i believe i can finesse the modern democratso a place where everyone will be happy. we'l see. hard to see right now, but these things are always messy until they're clean. >> axios also spoke to progressive lawmakers who are frustrated. a lot of frustrated lawmakers right now. these annoyed with kyrsten sinema's resistance to president biden's reconciliation package. what are they telling you guys? >> you hit on this earlier, the notion they feel lik it is insane, i think was the word one of the congressman used. insane that one senator, in this case senator kyrsten sinema from arizona, could hold up the entire package and dictate whe

how do you feel about kirsten sinema now? >> disappointed.tting the support she said she would give immigrants. we have said that and in the filibuster reform, in the filibuster, it is one of the ways to get immigration reform done. and get a pathway to citizenship for people and daca recipients. my dad passed away because of covid waiting on an immigration reform. every day we lose people on both sides of the border. she knows our pain. she organized the marches in 2010. i walked with my son who is now a voter, ten years later, who is going to be voting for someone in 2024 that represents immigrants like myself and we need a better presentation. >> you came as a teen to the u.s., a daca recipient and the senate parliamentarian denied a bid to put a pathway to citizenship into the much larger bill yesterday, which i know is a disappointment for you. that's one of the issues you have with senator sinema among others, but you're part of this group that is raising money to launch a primary clehallenge to the senator if she doesn't get behind get

manchin and sinema still haven't said what price tag they're willing to support. speculation is about $2.5 trillion. is that where they are? and it bears repeating that the president has not said publicly how big he wants it to be either. >>> we're not the only ones wondering where the president is. here's democratic congresswoman debbie dingle. >> they're trying to figure out the right thing to do. they need to know exactly where the president stands and what the president wants to do and they're getting mixed signals depending who you talk to and what is it he wants to do and his priorities. people are told you're in or have to be with the president. what is it the president wants? nobody can even answer that question. >> that is, should be an alarming statement to folks in the west wing when debbie dingell is saying that out loud. means progressives are going to vote down the president's infrastructure bill which is slated for a house bill tomorrow. speaker pelosi tried to dance around all these disagreements when she spoke about the lack of clarity facing her

we have, as we know, joe manchin and kirsten sinema, what's the rush here, they said?g and reckless behavior, what it does, on the part of every republican senator, o has joined with him, it ds an gency togetting that reconciliation packagedone. i would assu that today, when president biden met with sinema and manchin, he let them know that this is not just about a kind of negotiation over what we do with these two bills that affect different kinds of infrastructure. it's also out whether we crash into a deerecession or something worse, and have long economic effects. so mcconnell has done this before, ing the debt limit as a hostage. this may have a perverse impact, if in fact we get this taken to a point where a deal with it in reconciliation. and i want to make the point, lawrence, that if we do it that way, let's end this ridiculous thing once and for all by adopting the wonderfully named mcconnell rule, meaning the president raises the debt ceiling, congress can disapprove. and he can veto it. he can prevail at anytime. no more of these hostage taking, reckless el

but manchin and sinema are not there yet. talking to progressives yesterday, they made clear here that they are going to vote know and they're a hard no. listen. you're a hard no tomorrow. >> absolute no. write it on the wall. i'm a no. >> reporter: you're a no. >> yes. correct. >> i think that if the vote were to fail tomorrow or be delayed there would be a significant breach in trust that would slow the momentum in moving forward in delivering the biden agenda. >> reporter: are you worried you may not have the votes? >> one hour at a time. >> reporter: so that comment there in the middle from stephanie murphy, a dee moderate blue-dog democrat saying it would be a significant breach in trust from leadership if they were to move back from this infrastructure vote today. remember, pelosi agreed to have a vote this week. initially she said monday, then said it was going to happen on thursday. could that cost her votes from moderates in the bigger plan? that is a very difficult conundrum facing her right now. how does she resolv

sinema went three times yesterday and won't tell anyone what she wants.isten. >> i have no idea what she wants. i don't think her colleagues know what she wants. i don't think the president knows what she wants. i don't think house moderates know what she wants. we said let's get in a room. let's negotiate. let's come up with a deal. and i just don't understand it. the president carried her state. >> do you know what she wants? >> well, i'll tell you this. everyone is working around the clock, including senator sinema, on getting it done. she was at the white house yesterday. obviously, i wasn't in that meeting. all i know is great progress was made. and we're going keep working today. but, again, that doesn't mean these are two separate pieces of legislation. you don't hold up and not vote for an infrastructure package that is historic once in a century that will help fix everything from water, broadband, to fighting climate change to the gateway tunnel between new york and new jersey. you don't hold it up, hold it hostage while working on another piece

you're seeing the most pressure on sinema and manchin. this is the result of a democratic party becoming a bigger tent than they perhaps ever expected. you're having progressives and moderates fighting with each other and you're not getting that much grassroots pressure from conservatives. conservatives in the states are going to school board meetings to yell about masks and compare themselves to rosa parks. this is isn't, like, the tea party. if the tea party was really focused on the mtv vmas or something. >> the republicans are under no pressure whatsoever to cooperate. even with the debt limit which you saw the speaker tried to do, they're comfortable standing back. >> they are, and there's a sense they could pay a steep price for this next year. there's no doubt that democrats are at a significant disadvantage if you look at the math for 2022, but if this party -- the republican party continues to be completely co-opted by its trumpian like, there would be consequences for them. we saw gavin newsom overperformed in that recall becaus

he had a few things to say about arizona senator kyrsten sinema. take a listen. >> it's funny because i actually spoke to kyrsten sinema. i did a fundraiser at our house in los angeles for the democratic sen toirl campaign committee. this was years ago, two or three years ago. and she, at the time, was vociferously -- vociferously standing up for the filibuster. one of the -- the attendees at the fundraiser asked a question about the filibuster. and there were several of the senators that were there who were willing to get rid of the filibuster. but even at the time, senator sinema stood up for the filibuster. and i just can't say more clearly how wrong i think she is on this issue. >> mehdi, this particularly interesting because we don't get a lot of intimate windows into senator sinema's thinking, right? that is part of the mystique of her. and also, we talk a lot about her political evolution. what did you make of that piece of the interview? >> you very politely call it mystique. i might call it arrogance that she doesn't actually come on shows

sinema, a little less.in is saying he wants to undo the 2017 tax cuts that republicans passed, that's what he wants to start with. that's kind of his opening salvo right now to the white house. but, yeah, don, there is a lot that they have not told the president, which is why biden is really pushing them to just give him a number, whether it's a top line or tell him what exactly they can live with in this package. because biden is betting that if he can figure it out with manchin and sinema, that the house centrists, there's a handful of them that also aren't on board with the social spending package right now, that they'll follow manchin and sinema, and then he can go to progressives with this really detailed framework and get them to support the bipartisan infrastructure package. now, i don't think this is going to happen before tomorrow or by the time pelosi decides she wants to bring up a vote. and so it's very likely that she pulls it if the votes aren't there. >> let's do the math here. and let's talk

like manchin and sinema you're a more centrist democrat unlike those two you're supporting the biggernomic package, the $3.5 trillion and as the president meets with manchin and sinema today, what does he need to say to them to get them on board with the bigger package? >> well, i think they need to agree on everything that's in this package and also agree on the pay-fors. for example, many moderates as myself are not -- i'm not so concerned with the price tag as i am for the -- on the pay-s for. we want to make sure that any taxation is fair and just and across the board and that we don't in any way punitively tax one particular industry, for example, the oil and gas in texas. we need to make sure it's going to be fair if a and balanced. we need to pass infrastructure and reconciliation this. reconciliation bill as infrastructure is going to bring 2 million jobs to the country. it's going to improve economies across the country. it's going to give for the first time in history our seniors will have dental and hearing and vision care. for the first time in history we'll be negotiating

i know manchin, sinema is the problem. they're both problems. i think manchin will be there at a price eventually. west virginia makes too much money out of this. he's going to have to no home and explain to all the west virginiaians why there is no opioid money, why there is no bridges, why there is no infrastructure if he doesn't vote for this. he's going to find a way. the problem is that's not good enough because you got to get sinema. she is the sphinx of all this. nobody is figuring out what is making her tick. i have already predicted he is not coming back. that's not until 2024. you know, she really holds the key. manchin gets the inink. that's what this is about. i don't understand what sinema is doing and why she's in the senate. >> does he get ink, governor, or the pixels? >> who, manchin? he likes the pixels and the ink. i guess the pixels. who knows what is more important these days. they all read the people as well as look at the internet. >> yeah, i think all of it. the pixels, the ink. i am jumping because i have kornacki on stan

this is why sinema is a problem.ltimately, the logic of this coming together, there is a common identity among the majorities, that they see common purpose with one another, their electoral fortunes are bond together about how they to and how joe biden does. so the team mentality gets them to come together for both the reconciliation. however, kyrsten sinema is very hard to define politically. joe manchin is not so hard to define. he is a democrat. he represents a conservative state that donald trump won by 40 percentage points. he will naturally be reluctant to come along. she was in the green party before she was a democrat. the longer it goes without her defining her bottom line, a lot of people will wonder does she want all of us to succeed together or not. >> they are getting impatient. it is lovely to see you this morning. >>> all right. the week from hell could turn in the economic calamity from hell if the u.s. defaults on its debts, which republicans for now have voted to let happen. u.s. treasury secretary

this is the entire democratic party and joe biden versus kyrsten sinema. i have no idea what she wants. i don't think her colleagues knows what she wants. i don't think the president knows what she wants. i don't think house moderates know what she wants. >> congressman, do you know what they want, what their number is? >> i can't speak to the senate politics. it's a strange place over there. it takes three or four legislative days just to turn the lights on sometimes. i try not to play the senate whisperer. but i can tell you i think what my colleague from california is saying is true. democrats are united behind this agenda. we're a diverse coalition. we don't all have one feeling. sometimes the other side of the aisle falls in line. we're concerned about the details, and if our colleagues have concerns about some of those details, there's places for them to air it. and i know that's what some of those senators are looking to do, just as our legislative committees who have marked up these bills have done. they've aired their concerns. not every democrat

manchin isn't say a whole lot and sinema hasn't said a whole lot.t the president has said after speaking to nancy pelosi and chuck schumer again yesterday effectively is that they support the strategy that they're taking right now, exactly what that strategy looks like going forward remains to be seen. one thing is notable, this engagement with sinema and manchin that the two will be here today, the third time in three weeks that those senate moderates, those centrists ultimately are a part of this conversation with the president. they really are driving the way this goes going forward, but, chuck, to give you a better standard for our audience right now you're basically playing with these four puzzle pieces that they're trying to fit together from government funding to the debt limit to the first infrastructure plan that is bipartisan, the second one that's not going to be $3.5 trillion nancy pelosi acknowledges but how much less will it be? the desire had been for this to all get done dh week, clearly that's not going to happen, joe biden himself