now i like skeptic magazine and the debunking of ufos and holocaust denial. but when he i he's going after privilege and he's doing something immoral. >> host: great example if you want to go anecdotal, so, prior to that atheists all the time when they want to tell their anecdotes or their stories, they want to go to the middle ages and talk about the inquisition. they want to talk about the religious war, about the state of the witchhunt. look at these things religious people were doing. that doesn't even rise to the level of anecdotal evidence because there is no control group. if someone came up to you and said what people are inherently more violent than white people, you could say before the year 1500 in africa, black people said it all the time, they committed all of the oppression, the assaults, the deaths of. it's a silly thing to say. and that's exactly what the atheists do. you look they are doing in the middle ages, all the things that religious people were doing i don't see atheists doing this stuff. it's a silly thing to say so take that all and

doctor shermer, michael shermer of skeptic magazine wrote an article most atheist disagree with. >> host: he is an atheist. >> guest: he says we can derive art from is, you can look at the way the world is in the way humans actually behave and conclude that is how we should behave. it is the case that we humans strive to survive and flourish and something is moral. my answer to that it is the case that humans commit genocide and star wars and murder and rape and kill. to say therefore we should do those things is preposterous. the way you put it is right. evolution is amoral. we have to introduce morality from outside the natural world and that's a great argument for god and i have a chapter in my book called the good delusion. richard dawkins rose there's a delusion of god. every argument you make you can make the same argument against the existence of good. you can't believe in god because you feel god, the only way you know right and wrong is to feel it. if i haven't wish and about what is moral why can't i have intuitions about the creator of the universe. >> host: hyrum lewis, you t

temperature about the magazine's relationship with the president turned white hot in a bigger one in the office of human resources, it was only later when one of the employees who had been skepticalgetting jumpy and wanted to check that they found something amiss. the list of trump dirt did not match up with the physical files. some of the material had gone missing. what happened to those files? >> so this is a book about patterns of abuses of power including in the media world, and obviously one of the great political stories of the last several years, "the wall street journal" has done great reporting on this, i broke serl stories about this has been the collaboration between powerful men and media outlets and especially the "national enquirer" and donald trump. there are these new revelations in "catch and kill" so this list was made. we for the first time in this book, reporters hadn't seen this before, saw the complete contents of that list. >> i can't wait to get to that. you have seen the content list of what the dirt was over decades for donald trump. before we get to the content, what happened to those files? >> patience, yes, no, that's exactly right, and in addition to