which sofses do you not want to have? that's something everybody can understand and we can reach an agreement. but i think it's almost always a mistake to treat a fee as a mystery and deride the fee as some arcane kind of formula. it's simply a list of what you want to do and how you are going to get there. >> i guess i was kind of confused about if you go in and -- can you expect an architect to say, the fee is going to be 30 percent of the project costs or are they going to say these are the tasks, are we going to bill her $150 an hour. >> what karen was saying with the 30 percent, when someone is contemplating a barraget and making up an initial budget, that's a nice safe number to put in for the miscellaneous costs that are initiated beyond construction. but when you are actually agreeing on a scope and a fees, then you have to discuss the particulars. what are you going to do, how long is it going to take, how long should it cost me. . >> is a contract a bid with the architect, that is, i think this is how many hours