so i went on and did get formal training in psychotherapy and sonsabling. -- and counseling.arl rogers was my mentor. i went through all of that. at that time, i had to say, i'm one of the few with doctor training in counseling and also, a minister. my whole life has been in academics. >> she had degrees in this, too? >> yes, she was a counselor making a living. i wanted to work in the pastoral. >> you were married when? >> september 18th, 1952. >> and children? >>> yes, we have john, he's a lawyer, head of a major program in southern california in the area of communication. we have a daughter who lives up in napa. she graduated from college, also. -- in colorado. then, our youngest is jed. he's developed a view called blended values. you look at stocks you're going to buy from the social impact value. >> the name of the company? >> well, he's independant now. he's in new york and he consults. he does quite a bit -- >> blended values? >> and you find yourself, then, in the east. you're an assistant pastor and hopscotch us to denver. >> well, after -- well, a while, the church