this time on the program, soaring rhetoric, involving liberty, freedom, personal soverei soverei sovereigntyt do hear someone talking about defending their liberties differently when they have a semiautomatic weapon slung over their back. these militia groups, groups of this kind, when they come into the public way armed and want to show that they are armed, is that symbolism? or do people end up sometimes getting shot? >> hi, ray. well, i think it's a combination of things. i think it's partly political theater on their part, and partly an idealogical tennant of theirs. they think it is part of their political philosophy, a right-wing decentralized political policy, and individual sillianss -- civilians who have weapons are going to be part of the new government they would like to set up in the country. >> is it an outgrowth that they have been oppressed as citizens? the federal government has been overbearing, unresponsive, really used its extensive power to push them around? >> they certainly believe it. they believe -- it's hard to say because we don't know exactly who is in the building