our greatest economic pros sparety in history occurred in the '90s when we had exactly the same -- >> we had a tax bubble. >> -- as we have right now. no, throw out the '90s. the tech bubble didn't boost the economy. we had strong economic growth with exactly the tax structures we havtoday. the problem is people don't have money because there's no wage increases. that's the macro economic problem is. you have over population liing from paycheck to paycheck. of course, the idiocy coming out of washington by default and about downgrade and about government shutdown, that doesn't help the economy any either. >> well, gary, bottom line, taxes, do they help or hurt the economy? >> well, they always hurt the economy. up, going back to the point that steve made, let's stipulate that he's right. the big difference then in the '90s the government spent a lot less as a percent of gdp. when you raise taxes you're taking it from an efficient source, the market, the consumer, and giving it, by definition, an inefficient source of spending, the government. go through their zillion programs they run