SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 24, 2012
11/12
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specific directions of how it should be evaluated. and based upon that decision, we made this decision. >> okay. >> so you took the instructions from the board from the last hearing. >> that is correct. >> okay. >> and so the timing is and the permit came in with the board's decision. >> that is correct. >> that is helpful. >> thank you. >> okay, now we will take public comment. people interested in speaking, please step forward. president hwang how much time? >> how many speakers? >> okay, three minutes. >> my name is jamie patrick and i am here with patrick and company in san francisco. i am speaking on behalf of or as a business owner with retail within the second street corridor, property owner. owning four different properties on the second street corridor. as well as a landlord with restaurants within that second street corridor. my family has been operating a business at that location just after the earthquake. and i can tell you every day, i have been working there 15 years, every day, another coffee place opens on that second
specific directions of how it should be evaluated. and based upon that decision, we made this decision. >> okay. >> so you took the instructions from the board from the last hearing. >> that is correct. >> okay. >> and so the timing is and the permit came in with the board's decision. >> that is correct. >> that is helpful. >> thank you. >> okay, now we will take public comment. people interested in speaking, please step forward. president...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 25, 2012
11/12
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streets and specific districts. but from the i and the o perspective, how that works, that information as it goes up, what's happening is we have regular meetings from these agencies that are dealing with that information when it comes in from the streets. so it's not just we may have had an incident that happened last week, for example, it's what happens as a result -- let's say there is a shooting in whatever neighborhood. as a result of that shooting, the situation doesn't end because someone was arrested. the situation doesn't end right there. individuals are still dealing with that trauma. the neighborhood is still affected. you need to figure out what the root causes are from that shooting so one of the things that's happening now is that neighborhoods are meeting and communities are coming together to discuss those incidents. then they are also sharing that information with law enforcement so it goes back up into the ranks so they can accommodate more quickly how to respond, not just to make sure that someone
streets and specific districts. but from the i and the o perspective, how that works, that information as it goes up, what's happening is we have regular meetings from these agencies that are dealing with that information when it comes in from the streets. so it's not just we may have had an incident that happened last week, for example, it's what happens as a result -- let's say there is a shooting in whatever neighborhood. as a result of that shooting, the situation doesn't end because...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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90
Nov 4, 2012
11/12
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but i would like to have an even greater discussion that goes beyond the specific amount of money. but what else is it that we can do to collectively reach that objective? because to the extent that resources are a big problem here, is there -- are there additional things that the city can do with the resources that we do have to help in this effort? and to me, that discussion will also involve a discussion about what different city agencies, what role they can play in this effort? you know, what is it -- what kind of support system is needed to help a student achieve academic success? and academic success doesn't just happen in the classroom. it's something that requires an entire community school district has the responsibility to make it happen. so i would like to figure out how we as a city and county can be even more helpful? because i think that we're all in it together. president chiu. >> thank you, mr. chair. i was going to make a similar point and certainly in the context of november 6th and we don't know what is going to happen at the state level and what is going to happ
but i would like to have an even greater discussion that goes beyond the specific amount of money. but what else is it that we can do to collectively reach that objective? because to the extent that resources are a big problem here, is there -- are there additional things that the city can do with the resources that we do have to help in this effort? and to me, that discussion will also involve a discussion about what different city agencies, what role they can play in this effort? you know,...
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Nov 29, 2012
11/12
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MSNBCW
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the political word of the day seems to be specifics. both republicans and democrats are battering the other side saying there aren't enough specific proposals. we're sort of in that moment where the real work happens behind the scenes and the front stage part, the political theater you referred to, is about sort of testing the moment. we've heard optimism earlier in the process. today seems to be a more negative day in tone as far as what we're hearing. here's a sense of how the day is playing out. >> we put real concessions on the line by putting revenues on the table right up front. unfortunately, many democrats continue to rule out sensible spending cuts that must be part of any significant agreement that will reduce our deficit. >> the president has put forward in september of 2011 with his proposal to the so-called super committee and his budget of february of 2011 very specific spending cuts, including savings from health care entitlement programs. >> so one of the issues is, when you talk specifics and they become part of the pub
the political word of the day seems to be specifics. both republicans and democrats are battering the other side saying there aren't enough specific proposals. we're sort of in that moment where the real work happens behind the scenes and the front stage part, the political theater you referred to, is about sort of testing the moment. we've heard optimism earlier in the process. today seems to be a more negative day in tone as far as what we're hearing. here's a sense of how the day is playing...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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180
Nov 3, 2012
11/12
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i'm not aware of any complaints, specific complaints. >> okay. and to what degree do you think that the outdoor contributes to the financial well-being of your operation? >> it's absolutely vital. it seems like it's not such a big deal between midnight and 2:00 a.m. we're open from 5:00 through until 2:00. but a vast majority -- i believe what would be a vast majority of our patrons would opt for other options in their evening if they knew they had had to cut sht short at midnight and simply wouldn't show up for the earlier hours. >> thank you. >> is there anyone here representing the subject property owner? seeing no one, mr. sanchez? >> thank you. scott sanchez, planning department. i wish i could just distract you by saying that giants are up 6-1 and leave it at that, but unfortunately, we failed the appellant and we failed the neighbors in properly doing our job. so i will outline the process of events here for the board. so in incidence of 2007 conditional use application was filed for the bar and restaurant called alths and there was a hear
i'm not aware of any complaints, specific complaints. >> okay. and to what degree do you think that the outdoor contributes to the financial well-being of your operation? >> it's absolutely vital. it seems like it's not such a big deal between midnight and 2:00 a.m. we're open from 5:00 through until 2:00. but a vast majority -- i believe what would be a vast majority of our patrons would opt for other options in their evening if they knew they had had to cut sht short at midnight...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 23, 2012
11/12
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america's cup is not a great comparison because it's specific dates. it's not many days a year every year into eternity. and, so, i think this is much more about the structural day-to-day operations of muni. >> thank you. that's where i was going. so, when we did this episodic heavy lift, we learned there are going to be things hard to sustain. why do we not do this kind of service all the time? what are the capital shortcomings of the system that make it hard for us to run the e line and augment the others? what are the operational challenges? because to get a bunch of operators in for a big day is one thing. how do you sustain that, how do you train the drivers in advance? how do you have a graduating class well before the demand? this year a few things given me a greater sense of confidence. we worked on this and did some of the planning at the hunters point shipyard. to procure the streetcars we need, we need them three years in advance of when they should be running. we have to order streetcars so we have bigger capacity, we have to be three years
america's cup is not a great comparison because it's specific dates. it's not many days a year every year into eternity. and, so, i think this is much more about the structural day-to-day operations of muni. >> thank you. that's where i was going. so, when we did this episodic heavy lift, we learned there are going to be things hard to sustain. why do we not do this kind of service all the time? what are the capital shortcomings of the system that make it hard for us to run the e line and...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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83
Nov 26, 2012
11/12
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SFGTV2
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with specific restrictions and revisions. so that means it's automatically no if it's within the 50 feet? and also if the performance is issued by december 31st, 2012, then the restriction will not apply. so anything that is -- any permit that is issued prior to passing this amendment would not apply? >> right. those permits stay in existence for as along as those permits are . >> do is we know of any food trucks within 50 feet of any restaurants now? >> >> there are some. >> i would imagine there that there is. >> so they are grandfather in? >> they are grandfather in. >> i would like to add an additional recommendation, this would be to waive the 50' restriction for food trucks that operate after 10:00 p.m., specifically targeting food trucks near nightclubs and late-night vendors. >> should we handle it on a case-by-case basis or do it now? >> i think it's good to do it with recommendation with the following recommendations. >> yes. >> so i am abit worried commissioner dooley on the blanket statement on formula retail. i a
with specific restrictions and revisions. so that means it's automatically no if it's within the 50 feet? and also if the performance is issued by december 31st, 2012, then the restriction will not apply. so anything that is -- any permit that is issued prior to passing this amendment would not apply? >> right. those permits stay in existence for as along as those permits are . >> do is we know of any food trucks within 50 feet of any restaurants now? >> >> there are...
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Nov 14, 2012
11/12
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CNBC
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nor am i suggesting i've got some specific assignment. but what i want to do is to get ideas from him and see if there's some ways that we can potentially work together. >> with congress, one of the most frequent criticisms we've heard over the past few years from members on both sides is that you haven't done enough to reach out and build relationships. are there concrete ways that you plan to approach your relationships with congress in the second term? >> i think there's no doubt that i can always do better, and so i will examine ways that i can make sure to communicate my desire to work with everybody so long as it is advancing the cause of strengthening our middle class and improving our economy. i've got a lot of good relationships with folks both in the house and the senate. i have a lot of relationships on both sides of the aisle. it hasn't always manifested itself in the kind of agreements that i'd like to see between democrats and republicans, and so i think all of us have responsibilities to see if there are things that we can
nor am i suggesting i've got some specific assignment. but what i want to do is to get ideas from him and see if there's some ways that we can potentially work together. >> with congress, one of the most frequent criticisms we've heard over the past few years from members on both sides is that you haven't done enough to reach out and build relationships. are there concrete ways that you plan to approach your relationships with congress in the second term? >> i think there's no doubt...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 7, 2012
11/12
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. >> and specifically that would be the offices of president and vice president of the commission. taking the president first, commissioner vietor. >> it would be my great pleasure to nominate commissioner torres as the next president of the san francisco public utilities commission. >> thank you. and is there a second? >> second. >> and seconded. is there comment? >> [speaker not understood]. [laughter] >> that's good. >> is there any public comment? seeing none, all of those in favor. >> aye. >> opposed? the motion carries unanimously. >> congratulations. >> with that, you're president. and if i can give you the archly he -- gavel and take your seat. [laughter] >> one final, pass the resolution in your absence. thanking you for your service to the city and county of san francisco which spans more than your one-year service in fresno. >> thank you very much. (applause) >> >> and i'd like to echo appreciation for mr. moran. thank you so much for your leadership. >> thank you. it has been my honor and pleasure to be able to serve not only as a commissioner, but also as president for
. >> and specifically that would be the offices of president and vice president of the commission. taking the president first, commissioner vietor. >> it would be my great pleasure to nominate commissioner torres as the next president of the san francisco public utilities commission. >> thank you. and is there a second? >> second. >> and seconded. is there comment? >> [speaker not understood]. [laughter] >> that's good. >> is there any public...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 8, 2012
11/12
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but we cannot discuss any specifics.es, phone numbers, important inf+ we cannot discuss that on the record because it's privileged and confidential and -- attorney last night also provided me with a( ] cautioning us on releasing this information. soñ any information the commissioners have regarding firstt ç applicant david randall -- >> you said they have been approved already by4i:9t the department is that correct? >> hector who is presentr$@a tonight sgt. would you like to come forward. >> good evening. the backgrounds have been thoroughly reviewed and they've been approved byw3 the department. the background investigations, to review the packets, to make sure everything was in there, and they the2z &jñ backgrounds are favorable f&eñ>uá there's nothing inbb(15i there. >> let me ask further. i don't know if this is aw3pb2xhpwn process -- does that mean recommending them? >> well that's -- >> or areoewe -- i don't remember us doing this before. >> i think you're recommending them. >> are you actually recommending them? >
but we cannot discuss any specifics.es, phone numbers, important inf+ we cannot discuss that on the record because it's privileged and confidential and -- attorney last night also provided me with a( ] cautioning us on releasing this information. soñ any information the commissioners have regarding firstt ç applicant david randall -- >> you said they have been approved already by4i:9t the department is that correct? >> hector who is presentr$@a tonight sgt. would you like to come...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 5, 2012
11/12
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i'm not aware of any complaints, specific complaints. >> okay. and to what degree do you think that the outdoor
i'm not aware of any complaints, specific complaints. >> okay. and to what degree do you think that the outdoor
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 7, 2012
11/12
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to answer your specific question, we did do an outreach piece in spanish. we did not do one in chinese. we planned to, we wanted to, but did not get one out. we worked with the mayor's mayor's office to get one out. particularly in the mission district we targeted various avenues and developments and that sort of thing. >> okay. thank you. i'm surprised in a city certainly the mayor's office knows how to get things translated. i know the mayor [speaker not understood]. i know there are folks on staff who know how to do that. >> i think that helps support the point, which was one of the lessons learned, that there was much better job that could have been done with regard to outreach. so, i think language is probably one dimension of that. i'm sure there are others as well. but that's i think an important take-home from this. >> supervisor wiener has a question, i believe. >> this is with regard to a few different questions with regard to areas you covered. the first has to do with -- it was real a good chart in of the differentxv of car sharing. i know you'r
to answer your specific question, we did do an outreach piece in spanish. we did not do one in chinese. we planned to, we wanted to, but did not get one out. we worked with the mayor's mayor's office to get one out. particularly in the mission district we targeted various avenues and developments and that sort of thing. >> okay. thank you. i'm surprised in a city certainly the mayor's office knows how to get things translated. i know the mayor [speaker not understood]. i know there are...
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Nov 24, 2012
11/12
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KQED
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each one has a private line, receptors specific to it and nerve fibers that lead to it. >> rose: hear, feel, touch. >> exactly, with pain people thought that it may not have a system of its own, that it hijacks other systems and doesn't have receptors of its own. >> for example, many people thought that pain was the touch system, tactile system that were firing inappropriately. >> we know this is wrong. many of these are small caliber fibers, many are these are finers that are specific to mechanical pain, cerebral pain and chemically induced pain. >> rose: and this is a breakthrough is. >> this is a major breakthrough and another occurred when we began to identify specific receptors that mediate this, and david julius who is here was one of the people who characterized one of these receptors. these are iron channels called trip channels, they respond to both thermal and chemical stimuli, this is a wonderful advance, and a major scientist in england jeffrey wood discovered tactile pain receptors. he discovered a group of kids that actually began with a pakastani family, then extended i
each one has a private line, receptors specific to it and nerve fibers that lead to it. >> rose: hear, feel, touch. >> exactly, with pain people thought that it may not have a system of its own, that it hijacks other systems and doesn't have receptors of its own. >> for example, many people thought that pain was the touch system, tactile system that were firing inappropriately. >> we know this is wrong. many of these are small caliber fibers, many are these are finers...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 3, 2012
11/12
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can you give me some specifics, ways you're going to be extrapolating the data? >> well, so, the one-way on street model, as i understand, operational in washington, d.c. and san diego, portland, i think vancouver and a couple of other cities. so, we've begun to get some information, want to talk directly to the folks in those cities to understand what their experience is. there is' also a report that was done from a program in hanover, germany that evaluated things such as -- i think, i haven't seen the report, but impact on emissions and where -- whether this was reducing trips or not. and, so, we're eager to evaluate what the experience in hanover was as well. * >> and in this evaluation process, when did it begin, you said in 2003 -- in 2013? >> no. so, we've already asked the company for the information and they've sent some is and we've begun our outreach to the other cities. for we're not waiting for this on-street next round of the on-street pilot to launch before we start that evaluation. we're doing that now. >> okay. so, can you give me some indication
can you give me some specifics, ways you're going to be extrapolating the data? >> well, so, the one-way on street model, as i understand, operational in washington, d.c. and san diego, portland, i think vancouver and a couple of other cities. so, we've begun to get some information, want to talk directly to the folks in those cities to understand what their experience is. there is' also a report that was done from a program in hanover, germany that evaluated things such as -- i think, i...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 23, 2012
11/12
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SFGTV
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we applied to the federal transit administration for a grant specifically to do that and that is all we were... the money we were given was to do just the specific work that the fra asked us to do as a condition of the 400 million. so we cannot add more to the scope because there is only, so much money. because that is the first point, the second point is that to my knowledge, cal train and high speed rail are supportive of our alignment and the work that we are doing as art lloyd can attest to. we can certainly have a discussion director. but at this point, we have a cleared environmental document. and we are in the new starts pipeline. we have got only so much time, to get the funding that we need in order to start construction under the new start schedule and we are proceeding along the cleared environmental document that we have and we are do what the fra asked us under this very specific scope of the money that they granted us so we can't add to the scope that does not preclude doing what you indicated about reopening things but we were given a grant to specifically comply with
we applied to the federal transit administration for a grant specifically to do that and that is all we were... the money we were given was to do just the specific work that the fra asked us to do as a condition of the 400 million. so we cannot add more to the scope because there is only, so much money. because that is the first point, the second point is that to my knowledge, cal train and high speed rail are supportive of our alignment and the work that we are doing as art lloyd can attest...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 17, 2012
11/12
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SFGTV
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like items, this is a very specific type of coffee service. this is street, grab and go, and i myself, when i am in the san francisco downtown area i am on my bike and i am in a hurry, i can't lock the bike and find a place to put it and go through a lot of steps that are required to getting my hands on what i want if i am down there all day and i am going to plug in the lap top and i am going to sit down and eat a breakfast. places like starbucks don't sell the same thing. there are a million reasons that you go in a starbucks than to just get a cup of coffee. there are a number of days that i did not have time to wait that line is too long. if you look around and you see a line of five or ten people at every business you are out of luck. to me adding one more machine two days a week and overlapping two hours a day, operating hours, if this were me, i would be very, i would feel very complimented that my just the notion of me doing business, anywhere near this area is such a threat. i can't understand how this is directed to the operator of a
like items, this is a very specific type of coffee service. this is street, grab and go, and i myself, when i am in the san francisco downtown area i am on my bike and i am in a hurry, i can't lock the bike and find a place to put it and go through a lot of steps that are required to getting my hands on what i want if i am down there all day and i am going to plug in the lap top and i am going to sit down and eat a breakfast. places like starbucks don't sell the same thing. there are a million...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 7, 2012
11/12
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as we develop our score card, we could ask specific questions about service and reliability and water quality and supply assurance, earthquake preparedness by neighborhood as examples if that would be helpful. >> can i get a copy of that raoerth? >> yes. * report for the viewing public, both the reports for streets and parks are at the controller's website. >> any questions? commissioner moran. >> thank you very much. this is a policy that's been in the works for sometime. i don't know when we first started talking about it, but it was a year ago. >> yes. >> and it comes out of a real concern that our financial plans and projections show a continuation of a very steep increase in rates over time. and we have in the past had rate backlash that resulted in a rate freeze. i expected at some point we are going to be under a great deal of scrutiny to demonstrate that we have spent the people's money wisely. as we ask for more of it, the threshold question will be, how did you do with the stuff we already gave you? so, the intent of the policy was to provide a set of assurances to rate paye
as we develop our score card, we could ask specific questions about service and reliability and water quality and supply assurance, earthquake preparedness by neighborhood as examples if that would be helpful. >> can i get a copy of that raoerth? >> yes. * report for the viewing public, both the reports for streets and parks are at the controller's website. >> any questions? commissioner moran. >> thank you very much. this is a policy that's been in the works for...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 29, 2012
11/12
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SFGTV2
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teague to briefly restate the specifics of the v alternative. to my recollection, the commission supported the office alternative. i have an image here. if you will briefly, just in one or two words, summarize, it would be helpful that we are all on the same page on that. >> we're going to pull this up for the 3v option, which is essentially, again, just to remind everybody, right now it's proposed that harrison street would be the dividing line for where the sally district ends and where the western soma mug begins. the sally permits new nighttime entertainment uses but does not permit new office or residential. and the wmeg does allow new residential. this option would inis ited of keeping the 11th street corridor on that block, wmeg or extending the sally up that block, it would introduce the wmuo district onto that block, which is the western soma mixed use office drifted. district. and that district does allow for nighttime enter tatectionverctiontion, does obviously allow for office. but it does not allow for residential. * entertainment.
teague to briefly restate the specifics of the v alternative. to my recollection, the commission supported the office alternative. i have an image here. if you will briefly, just in one or two words, summarize, it would be helpful that we are all on the same page on that. >> we're going to pull this up for the 3v option, which is essentially, again, just to remind everybody, right now it's proposed that harrison street would be the dividing line for where the sally district ends and where...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 27, 2012
11/12
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i want to talk about specific uses and how they're treated in the area. housing is a obviously a big deal. it's generally permitted everywhere north of harrison street and the enclave districts and the neighborhood commercial district all permit residential housing. south of harris street except for in the few enclave districts and alleys housing is not permitted so that's this alley and the wmuo. in terms of retail it's permitted in rad and you get more flexibility with it and with retail. there are limits to the size and kind ofs retail and restaurants or bars and general retear and varies by district and there is a size limitation in any district in the planned area. in terms of office it is prohibited complete in the sally. currently had there is a small provision that allows work space professionals to be permitted but it's restrictive. i'm not aware of any projects that used that provision and the office is not permitted in the sally but principally allowed in the wmou and it's as office district. within the commercial districts on ninth, tenth and
i want to talk about specific uses and how they're treated in the area. housing is a obviously a big deal. it's generally permitted everywhere north of harrison street and the enclave districts and the neighborhood commercial district all permit residential housing. south of harris street except for in the few enclave districts and alleys housing is not permitted so that's this alley and the wmuo. in terms of retail it's permitted in rad and you get more flexibility with it and with retail....
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Nov 14, 2012
11/12
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CNN
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it is very specific.ys said that the buck stops with the president of the united states, particularly for his contradictory statements in the rose garden, on 60 minutes and later venues alleging the obvious terrorist attack in benghazi was strig triggered by a hateful video or we didn't know the cause. those statements clearly did not comport with the facts on the ground. we owe the american people and the families of the murdered americans a full and complete explanation which for two months the president has failed to deliver. given all the facts, a select committee must be appointed in order to obtain a full and complete accounting which would be credible with the american people. so very carefully drafted statement from john mccain. >> look, wolf, i think it is -- we have four dead americans and including a u.s. ambassador. this is -- that is a level of an attack that really is, i won't say without precedent, but it has been many years, decades since we have seen something like that. so it does warran
it is very specific.ys said that the buck stops with the president of the united states, particularly for his contradictory statements in the rose garden, on 60 minutes and later venues alleging the obvious terrorist attack in benghazi was strig triggered by a hateful video or we didn't know the cause. those statements clearly did not comport with the facts on the ground. we owe the american people and the families of the murdered americans a full and complete explanation which for two months...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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126
Nov 4, 2012
11/12
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SFGTV
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but this is specific course work. and so what concerns me is that if we -- i mean we should be considering them as off-track also, because half of the semester is already over and so they have a year and a half to make up one class or could be two classes. so they will need extra services and we should be budgeting for those students. that is the only reason i mention. it thank you. >> thank you, commissioner fewer. >> i think you will see is that we label them on-track credits, but missing benchmarks, but we are also including them in all of our plans in terms of credit recovery and extra services that they are going to need as well. and some of that may be a 5th year, especially if they are beginning english-language learner students as well, so they have an opportunity to take the english classes. so we definitely have those students within the scope of our work for our plan. so the next part is what we have done is -- since last time we met -- we got all of this data, and we drilled down and to make sure that the
but this is specific course work. and so what concerns me is that if we -- i mean we should be considering them as off-track also, because half of the semester is already over and so they have a year and a half to make up one class or could be two classes. so they will need extra services and we should be budgeting for those students. that is the only reason i mention. it thank you. >> thank you, commissioner fewer. >> i think you will see is that we label them on-track credits, but...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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Nov 13, 2012
11/12
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SFGTV2
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this level will be supported by findings of necessity, adopted by the commission, and detail the specific reasons and needs for increases above the rate of inflation. the intent is to recognize -- first of all, we're not entirely in control of our own costs. rates are set by m-o-us. [speaker not understood] so, we don't have control over everything. for the things that we do control, cost containment is an important objective. i don't think we should tie our hands and say that it will have to be flat. there may be good and sufficient reasons that we have to go above that. but if we do, we need to explain why. what those requirements were, how it calculates to an impact on the rates, and why that is a necessary thing for us to do. and there was basically nothing else we could do to offset those costs some other way, that we owe it to ourselves, we owe it to our rate payers that we make that kind of a finding. so, i think that's a very valuable addition. i'm sorry? >> where would you place the language? >> i think inserting that after the sustainability paragraph right before the report car
this level will be supported by findings of necessity, adopted by the commission, and detail the specific reasons and needs for increases above the rate of inflation. the intent is to recognize -- first of all, we're not entirely in control of our own costs. rates are set by m-o-us. [speaker not understood] so, we don't have control over everything. for the things that we do control, cost containment is an important objective. i don't think we should tie our hands and say that it will have to...