st. louisan, the world series is the be all and end all. so, i think it was telling because it said that politics is not the be all and end all. it really isn't. and it's important for all of us, i think to keep it in its proper place. >> absolutely. and that's kind of leads me to -- in talking about religion and religious people as a gift to politics, and i thought when you said -- when politics is broken, we should fix it. no one is going to disagree with the fact it's broken right now, but you say that religion raise our sights before the interest of self and group for the common good. >> talk about the virtuous citizenly? what do they mean by that and what do you mean by having virtues citizens? >> guest: well, the word "virtue" was used by each of our first four presidents, and what they meant by "virtue" was something more than just how people support themselves, whether they're just living wholesome lives or not. but it had to do with the common good, and whether we as individuals put the good of the country ahead of our own interest