by glenn greenwald journalist all thought and co-founder of the intercept and the new york by stanley fish a u.s. legal scholar and public intellectual and author of the book there's no such thing as free speech and it's a good thing to thank you both for joining me on upfront glenn let me start with you most people would agree that free speech is integral to democracy and should be defended as much as possible but does not really mean that we also have to protect the rights of racists islamophobia anti semites homophobes missile genesis to spread some pretty poisonous and hate filled ideas is a lot of misunderstanding. a distortion even of what free speech is supposed to be about no quite the opposite 1st of all the minute that you start empowering state institutions or government officials to punish people or do imprison people or to bar them from expressing certain ideas because the majority or the government dislikes those ideas you no longer have free speech in any meaningful sense all you have is a society in which the ideas of the government or the majority approves of are the ones

by glenn greenwald journalist lawyer author and co-founder of the intercept and the new york by stanley fish a us legal scholar and public intellectual and author of the book there's no such thing as free speech and it's a good thing to thank you both for joining me on upfront glenn let me start with you most people would agree that free speech is integral to democracy and should be defended as much as possible but does that really mean that we also have to protect the rights of racists islamophobia anti semites homophobes missile journalists to spread some pretty poisonous and hate filled ideas is a lot of misunderstanding and distortion even of what free speech is supposed to be about no quite the opposite. 1st of all the minute that you start empowering state institutions or government officials to punish people or do imprison people or to bar them from expressing certain ideas because the majority or the government dislikes those ideas you no longer have free speech in any meaningful sense all you have is a society in which the ideas of the government or the majority approves of are the

is in hate speech but i don't know of any governments that i would trust to make that decision stanley fish in new york listening to go in there just pick up a couple of those points glenn is saying that you can't really have any kind of free speech of government allowed to censor that speech and the racists kind of like being censored because it empowers them what's your response to those 2 point . i don't disagree with much of what glenn said but my take on the entire question i think is a bit different from his for me the real question is whether you regard freedom of speech as a principle or the you are guarded as a value the difference is if it's a principle it's freestanding and is in some sense its own justification it's held to apply in almost all if not all circumstances if on the other hand free speech is a value then it's a value in competition with or in a mix with other values and you ask other kinds of empirical questions in free speech cases what you have to do is 1st calculate the costs of regulating the speech in question emotional political economic course and then calcula

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