stephen douglas, even more importantly the illinois control railroad which a was built to supplementbo what was going on n the canals becomes the longest railroad in the world by 1850. he eventually goes from the northwest illinois all the way to new orleans but not until after the civil war and becomes a major transit route during the civil war so keep those things in mind, these are two months development in the history of the country, the midwest, links eastern markets to the southern port, it's globalization in a very small sense but a very growing sense. what happens when the civil war comes along? we know what we can says, we know what the house divided speech, lincoln douglas debates what i started going into the material and found something very interesting that he said literally in the first debate with even douglas in illinois 1858 running for senator at that time against douglas, douglas controlled the illinois democratic party and at that t time senators were not directly elected, they were elected by state legislature so he became the senator so what happened was lincoln,

a guy named stephen douglas . so lincoln is learning by watching these debates as well but he's also learning both what to do and what not to do. todd stewart was sort of lazy, he's good in front of juries but lincoln although he could be called lazy has a lot to learn from books himself. browning is another lawyer, one of the contemporaries of lincoln's but browning is also somebody who helps guide lincoln first into the social world later also he's in the state legislator at the same time lincoln is so they're working with the state house. but then browning will stay in touch with the lincoln. lincoln is one of the few people lincoln addressed. later, browning is appointed to take over his senate seat and during his time in washington they have a rather candid and sometimes tempestuous correspondence over the years but nevertheless browning is still there. somewhere in lincoln's view ask somebody who lincoln likes to use as a secondary so that how they all come into play. at least at the beginning when they beco

in his debates with douglas, -- stephen douglas he said the ultimate extinction of slavery well not happen for at least 100 years. lincoln advocated compensation to masters for the loss of their property. this bill in washington dc did not call for that. that is one of the reasons he opposed it. lincoln also calls for subsidies for colonization of free blacks outside of the united states. in essence, his vision of america was a white one. douglas was outraged at lincoln's opposition to this bill to end slavery. probably the -- before they became friends, they were, quite friendly, enemies. -- quite frankly, enemies. this is highlighted in lincoln's first inaugural in 1861. the closest frederick douglass ever came to losing his faith in america, repudiating the possibility of america ever living up to its ideas in the declaration, was in the immediate wake of the first inaugural. why? because in the first inaugural, lincoln does two things in particular that outrage frederick douglass. one, now remember, when lincoln gives his first inaugural, seven states had already seceded, the confedera

in fact, in his debates with stephen douglas in 1858, lincoln said, when do i think slavery should end? when will ultimate extinction of slavery occur? not less than 100 years. that would have placed the end of slavery at the very earliest, barring civil war, in 1958. that's a very gradual end to slavery. lincoln advocated confidence -- compensation to masters for the loss of their property which the bill and washington, d.c. did not call for. lincoln also called for, urged subsidies for colonization, colonizing blacks outside of the united states. in essence, his vision of america was a white one. douglas was outraged at lincoln's opposition to this bill to end slavery. probably before they became friends, they were quite frankly enemies. this is highlighted in lincoln's first inaugural in 1861. the closest frederick douglass ever came to losing his faith in america, repudiating the possibility of america ever living up to its ideals in the declaration, was in the immediate wake of the first inaugural. why? in the first inaugural, lincoln does two things in particular that outrage fre

was in illinois, which is kind of a racist environment and he was running for offers against stephen douglas you can cherry pick certain things he said at the time to sound quite backward and forth, but i really surprised by his sincere closeness to african-americans that stretched from springfield when he lived in the neighborhood where w where there were some 20 african-americans through this presidency where frederick douglass who met him in the white house and sojourner truth, the african-american feminist and martin delany, a real radical and med him and they found him really the least prejudiced person they had met and they were quite honest about that, and so it kind of helped for me to understand why he does become the first president to publicly endorse the vote for african-americans. >> thank you for that answer 'the next question from martha for professor varon, the question what did researching and writing for your book illuminate for you the endeavor of changing heartses and minds in a moment of polarization? >> so, i think that this -- in a sense brings us back to lincoln. linc

and let's remember that that in 1858 when lincoln was campaigning for the senate against stephen a douglas stephen a douglas engaged in the most flagrant racing. the the speeches that douglas made in the 1858 campaign both in the course of the debates and then elsewhere in illinois were flagrant outrageous bids for the support of the large number of illinoisans who didn't i did not like black people and didn't want to have to associate with them and and douglas was shameless in his appeals to race prejudice. and so and and douglas won the election in part because he was so effective and appealing to people white people's prejudice. so so lincoln says okay slavery is an outrageous wrong and your your mistreated even when you can't be slaves. and i think this this is a key to understanding lincoln's support for colonization. that lincoln was convinced that white racism was so endemic so widespread so deep-seated that black people were never going to get a fair shake in the united states. and he believed that those black people who shared that belief should have a haven should have a refuge s

and then he turns it around as you suggest -- self-pity -- i have no, i'm not jealous of stephen douglas all the success he has achieved he ends on a very positive note, that he wants what he calls the oppressed of my species to be lifted up. that's what my goal is. he does turn it around. i think many times lincoln probably paused in writing these notes and said oh, my goodness, and then takes it in a different direction. >> you just reminded me that when i see lincoln's depressions, and he had numbers them sometimes words friends took waveguides insisted from him, there were fearful of him taking his own life, why didn't he do that? because positively he wanted to make a difference in the world before he left it. >> yes. >> so again that shows positiveness that brought in out of depression, melancholy, that he could continue on with his life and work in not do away with it because of his deep depression for time. i'm glad you reminded me of that. another thing that's nice about this book is that each chapter has the preface, meaning a lincoln image that shows him at the time of the not

guest: lincoln had a saying when someone shouted liar at him at one of his debates with stephen douglas his response was you cannot disprove euclidean geometry by calling euclid a liar. caller: ok let me say a factor then. here is a fact. trump hired illegals daily and has for 50 years and twice he has gone to court, while he was president he went to court and he lost for stealing people's money and he brings them in, he hires them and over and over and he is the one who hires them. host: let's take that point. guest: i don't know whether that's true or not, but whether it is is irrelevant. we do need to enforce the law which already makes it illegal to hire someone who is illegally in this country. that's a law being ignored every day. we desperately need e-verify so every employer will be required to get a bit of legal residency before they make a higher and we need to actually increase the penalties for employees -- employers were breaking federal law and hiring illegal aliens. there we can agree completely. host: i want to go to the gallup site and the number you keep referencing. 4

douglas stuart in new york state, welcome to hardtalk. hi, stephen. thank you for having me. a great pleasure to have you on the show. douglas, i think people right around the world are still discovering your extraordinary novel, shuggie bain. they may be surprised to learn that it took you pretty much a decade, maybe a little bit more than a decade, to actually complete this novel. now, that makes it sound like it was very difficult to write. was it difficult? it was at times quite difficult to write, because it draws on a lot of experience from my own life. but like many writers, i had to juggle the writing of it with some real—world needs of being in employment and earning a living. but also a big part of why it took me ten years to write — because ijust loved the writing of it and i didn't want to close the book, as it were, or say goodbye to the characters at the heart of it. you wrote it, interestingly, very far from where it is set because, of course, you were born and raised in glasgow, in scotland, but your home now is either in new york city or sometimes in new york