emily: what was your relationship with the stephen leicht? tony: it was professional. it was friendly, but it was tough at times. it was a great mentor type of relationship, and there were other times when he would call me on my -- whether we were fighting or being friendly it was all about , the best thing for the customer experience, which is what i loved. i would never trade that for anything. emily: i read that it was kind of like father and son. tony: there were times when we were like ok, we are going to take on the world. there were other times that we felt like strangling each other. if there is tension, there is a creation. you really need creative tension. emily: you quit a couple of times. tony: it was a dramatic relationship. emily: there is a modern mythology of johnny ives as the apple design guide. how do you remember it? was it more of a team effort? sometimes the mythology leads people to believe. tony: when it comes to design, there is no right or wrong. there are opinions. different people had different opinions and let the charge for certain decisio

emily: what was your relationship with the stephen leicht? very professional.here were times it was friendly. i would not say we were friends, per se, in terms of hanging out. it was friendly, but it was tough at times. it was a great mentor type of relationship at times, and there were other times when he will call me on my crap or i called him on his crap -- he didn't like that. whether we were fighting or being friendly, it was all about the best thing for the customer experience, which is what i loved. i would never trade that for anything. emily: i read that it was kind of like father and son. is that -- tony: there were a lot of-hate moments. there were times when we were like ok, we are going to take on the world. there are other times there it "i'm going to strangle you." if there is tension, there is a creation. you really need creative tension. emily: you quit a couple of times. you made. tony: it was a dramatic relationship. emily: there is a modern mythology of johnny ives as the apple design guide. i wonder how you remember it? was a more of a team