stephen roach, tell me about the new codependency with china and america. is it the same as the old codependency? stephen: the thing we know about codependency, whether it is human relationships or economic relationships, is it is never constant. it reflects the tension it builds between interpersonal and in this case, bilateral partners in trade and economic commerce. china has changed its growth model. we are uncomfortable with that. we have raised other objections about china's behavior in areas like geostrategic strategy and human rights. and so, we have taken a unilateral trade action against them in the trump administration. what my fear is that by not changing from trump's policy, president biden's administration has been boxed in by then ms politics and -- then -- venomous politics. tom: i want to expand from boston with china to take off your book from years ago, boxed in of the next asia. it is not just about china, but the pacific rim as well. what should be the pavement in strategy of the biden administration? stephen: the pivot was part of the p