steve ballmer made that even worse with the mindset of we'll be everything to everybody, and we'll buyur way into businesses when we see what works. >> now, you cite a remark of steve jobs in that biography of jobs by walter isaacson that there wasn't enough, quote, liberal arts in the dna at microsoft. tell me how you think the corporate culture at microsoft has determined its fate. >> microsoft has always been a technology engineering company. one of the things steve jobs said that isn't quoted in that book -- or in that article is that, you know, the easy part is the engineering. the hard part is determining what customers want and need. and to a large extent, microsoft does it the other way around. they focus on the engineering, making -- i mean, look at windows vista which is a disaster both on a engineering and a desire stage. it was so complicated and so many of microsoft's products are so complicated. and it's because they're overloaded. they'rer inning centric. they're about getting people to put in things that they think will look good on an engineering basis. >> do you think

[applause] >> and to introduce our next panelist, i would like to welcome steve ballmer, senior bp -- vp. >> good morning and thank you. next up is governor hickel lipper -- hickenlooper. he is the serieaal a entreprener each of you have in your respective parts. he became very successful in the brew pub business. he never had a single election not even for stink -- a student council. governor? [applause] in keeping with the discussion, he is keen on innovation and things of that nature. i know that will come out. thank you, governor. >> are we all set? i am from the "mercury news," and we're here because we live in a global cloueconomy. it has altered local economies because so many manufacturing and technology jobs are moving, whether it is a matter of costs for going where the trained work force is. we're fortunate to have to governors here to talk about how that change affects their jobs and what they're doing to jump- start their economies which compete with one another. this could be fun. let me start with our guest. governor hickenlooper. i knew that was going to happen. most o

one night, he passed by gates' office and overheard him talking with steve ballmer, who'd been hiredat were they saying? >> they were basically talking about how they were planning to dilute my share down to almost nothing. and it was a really shocking and disheartening moment for me. >> and you were sick. >> i think i was still probably in the middle of radiation therapy. >> he burst in and interrupted them. he says they were trying to cut him out and rip him off. >> and of course, steve came over to my house later that night to apologize. >> he did? >> he did. >> but bill didn't come. >> no, he sent steve. >> he sent steve. it wasn't steve. he sent steve. >> well... steve's the one who came. >> shortly after, allen left, but he got to hold on to all his shares. it's hard to feel sorry for him. he was 30, cured of cancer, and owned nearly a third of microsoft. so you built this building? >> yeah. >> after the company went public, allen became one of the richest men on earth, at one point worth an estimated $40 billion. gates would spend another two decades running microsoft, launchi

steve ballmer did not necessarily cooperate to say the least with the government. that's what happens when you were that big. i think apple, almost as if the big institution says this is a very inexpensive stock, it has mobile, has social, has clown. it's an opportunity and become a stock people say until this has a higher multiple than proctor & gamble or colgate, i will keep buying. >> the multiple is roughly 15. >> these are companies that may not have -- i'm read iing isaacson's book. candidly i skimmed it. i'm going back. why? i have to know more about why this company -- it was not doing as well when the book first came out. now, i'm going over every page to realize this guy set up a multi-year course. i know he was trying to work on cars that could drive on water when he died, had he not died, i think we would be filling up with fujii, not pac. >> people talk about a lot of numbers, this and that. microsoft at its peak is different than apple. i believe the peak was 55. north of 50. apple's value is is different at a time it is reaching its market cap peak.