and steve hall.o start with you here. this cnn reporting, russia sending in more spies, feeling emboldened about the size and scope of spying it can do. does that surprise you? >> no, it doesn't really surprise me. i mean, this is a time of significant tension and uncertainty on both sides. russia and the united states. and it's not at all uncommon for intelligence services to try to ramp up so they can get more information on the plans and intentions of the senior-most policymakers in washington. in that sense, it's not a surprise. it's also not a surprise given the fact that 35 russian diplomats, one can safely assume, many of them intelligence officers, were expelled from the united states late last year. so, that's another thing that the russians have to do some catching up on. no, it's pretty much expected. >> phil mudd, this happens on the same day that president trump said that nobody knows for sure whether the russians meddled in the u.s. election, despite the fact that u.s. intelligence offi

and steve hall. john, i'll start with you. putin several times when he met with then secretary of state john kerry. give us an idea of what that's like, the vibe he gives off. >> thanks, john. the trick with the meetings is to maximize the amount of time you're spending on the agenda that you have and minimize the amount of time that is inevitably a fairly lengthy russian diatribe in foreign policy. they usually start the meeting with. they'll go back in history to the cold war, to the arab spring, to the iraq invasion, to try to put the person across the table on the defensive. i think the key is being able to rebut it when absolutely necessary, and then shift to your own agenda, which is, you know, the most important reason why you're there. >> jill daugherty, so much is made of the optics of this. who will smile, who will frown, who will shake hands first. but you know, you know, don't forget the u.s. policy here and what is the u.s. policy toward russia. >> well, i don't think actually there is a policy right now. that's o

for the "new yorker," national security analyst steve hall, a retired c.i.a. chief of russian operations, cnn political commentator david swerdlick is an international editor at the "washington post." david, you first, vladimir putin i guess trying to get the final word on the sequence of that conversation with donald trump. how unusual will it be if donald trump himself doesn't take the opportunity right now, in the last day of hamburg, to give his version of events? did he agree to what putin had to say or not? >> i think it is unusual, it's part of you know, leadership is getting out making public statements, so it was strange yesterday that you know, secretary tillerson commented on the meeting, but no cameras were present. there was just this audio recording. yet foreign minister lavrov was talking about this openly. i know the trump administration is skeptical of the press and complains about the coverage it receives from the american press. but standing in front of a camera on live television allows a leader to express their views directly to the world

. >>> with me steve hall, retired cia chief of operations in russia. david sanger, cnn political and national security analyst and heather conley, former u.s. deputy assistant secretary of state. steve, i want to start with you here. one of the things we know about vladimir putin, at least we've been told, is he responds to strength. he responds to confidence. if that is, in fact, the case, should donald trump, the president of the united states, bring up the idea of russian election meddling? >> i believe he should. i believe he should be as strong as possible because i think the biggest mistake and the thing that concerns me is going in with a very western perspective. it sounds sensible to say let's find areas we can agree on. areas we can cooperate on. and the problem is that's not the way the russians see it. what needs to be done is, yes, the election meddle, needs to be raised. the annexation of another country needs to be raised. the supporting of basically a civil war in the eastern part of ukraine, the shooting down of civilian airliners, all

joining me now is steve hall and jill dougherty.watching summits like this, with both sides that will go and try to carefully choreograph what this meeting is like. how do you see it playing out? >> well, i think vladamir putin will do that. i think his people are very adept at that. i'm not quite sure what will happen on the american side, because as we know, there are a lot of conflicting right now factors for president trump. he wants to have a good relationship with putin. he wants to make this summit look like a success. but anything that he does that really is very positive towards vladamir putin can boomerang back home. so it's very delicate. and also, you have vladamir putin is a very experienced person. he's been in power 17 years, started out as we all know as a kgb operative. part of what he does is he looks at the other guy, evaluates what the other guy wants, and he plays to that other guy. so if he figures that donald trump wants a deal, he might suggest a deal. he might suggest a fedeal that' not good for the united s

steve hall, back to the original point here that president trump did bring up election meddling, which is something maybe he wasn't planning on doing as recently as a week ago. will that have any impact on the intelligence community here who has at times been in conflict with the president? how do you think it will play with the skeptics, even politically in congress? >> it's kind of interesting how low the threshold has gotten here. we're giving accolades to a president for raising what should be extremely obvious, an attack on our democracy. there's a couple typical russian things here. number one, when you get these denials and where's the facts? the russians know this is intelligence, they're not going to get proof, but they like to say that because it leaves us in a difficult position. the other thing is, and to jump on what jim sciutto was talking about. i think secretary tillerson perhaps without intending to, made life easier for foreign minister lavrov when he said our relationship with russia is important and we need to find a way to move forward. the russians will interpret

steve hall joins us. and jill dougherty is here. kremlin spokesman says they can't be expected to track russian lawyers and movements overseas. they don't know who this person is. "the new york times" is saying this person is connected to the kremlin. you know, people watching this would say why would the u.s. government be able to track every american lawyer overseas. sit different in russia? >> absolutely, it's different. this is one of the big problems with trying to transpose how things work in the west with how things work in russia, specifically moscow. ms. veselnitskaya is somebody who almost certainly would have been somebody who would have been usable by putin and the kremlin. the way i look at this whole situation is, you know, the russian intelligence officer who was tasked with trying to figure out whether the trump campaign was interested in cooperating. we already know that the putin -- that putin's position was, we need to try to arrange this american election so trump wins. i would tell my guys, let's cast a wide net

. >> another piece of the puzzle here with the panel, kirsten powers, ryan lizza, steve hall, maggieberman and jeffrey toobin. ryan it's hard to overstate just the importance of this just in terms of the progression of the story. there's still a lot we don't know and it's important to point that out. >> if this were something that was simply in isolation that is none of the events came after it, i could understand some of the defenses as no big deal, just meeting with someone to learn about the opponent's campaign. but it becomes a much, much bigger deal when looked at in the broader tapestry of what we've learned. weeks later at the republican national convention, the traditional view of the republican party was changed to be more pro-russia. after the election was over, the repeated attempts of trump advisers to hide, conceal meetings with russian officials. donald trump's strange defense of michael flynn, him firing the fbi director. repeatedly defending putin, repeatedly going to bat for russia, repeatedly saying that the intelligence community's assessment that russia interfered

. >> steve hall, i want to ask you two questions. i'm not sure if you can or would answer them. but a, how likely is it that u.s. intelligence would have been aware that potentially kremlin linked individuals would been trying to connect with the son of a presidential nominee? and secondly, if there was a phone conversation between donald trump, jr., and this russian pop star, is it likely or possible that that was picked up and is recorded somewhere, whether in the u.s. or overseas? >> well, taking your second question first, anderson. yes, it's certainly possible that the intelligence community may have intercepted such a call. although it would have been involving a u.s. person, you know, it would have been -- we get back to the old masking issue. was the name concealed? but that's possible. i would say it's hs possible that the intelligence community may have had some indication that the russian government was attempting to arrange this meeting. but fromly re lmy reading on th think it would have come up sooner if the intelligence community had been aware of it. what this lo

well outfront now, chris cillizza, juliet and steve hall, steve with all of this breaking news at this hour, let's start with what james clapper just said. exactly so, he says. what do you think? >> you know, i heard jim clapper's comments and i think his follow up comments were important, too, because i think one of the follow on questions was how does that impact morale and his answer was correct, which is, look, the intelligence community is a resilient group of people and that's certainly my experience, having worked there for 30 years. they're used to dealing with different administration and different political parties. they will do their jobs, and clapper indicated that. i am out of it so i can express my own personal outrage. it is unconscionable for the president to basically cast dispersions yet again on the intelligence community and on those men and women, the sacrifices are amazing to produce the type of intelligence specifically for the president to prepare him for where he is right now, at the g20. >> the significance that james clapper was willing to say that i think is

let's discuss with steve hall. also a retired cia chief of russia operations. e, how will this seizing of u.s. diplomatic properties and forcing all the people to leave affect as we see the sensitive u.s. operations in russia? >> well, it's a little bit of a quid pro quo. this is how these things are done. i was actually surprised that putin and the kremlin didn't immediately expel png, declare persona non grata our diplomats after the obama administration did this. how it will impact, i mean, when you have less people on the ground to do the work, whatever kind of work it is, diplomatic or otherwise, it will have a bit of a chilling effect. it will make it harder. but really we didn't have any choice. because what the russians would like you to think and they take advantage of our western optimism and sense of fair play. what the russians want us to think is look you kicked out and did something nasty to 35 of our folks and seized two of our facilities so we'll doe the same to you. the problem is what they'd like you to conveniently forget we did it for a reaso

i'm joined by steve hall. eve, based on what you know, i mean, the idea that, i mean, this russian attorney has denied that she has ties to the kremlin, that she works for the government in any way, but if the russian government did want to give information or wanted to remember to the trump campaign's interest in receiving information, is this a way that they might go about doing it? >> yeah, you're asking exactly the right question, anderson. if i'm the russian intelligence officer who's responsible for this operation, and it would be normal in the russian context for the russian special services, their intelligence services, to be the ones behind this, what you're going to look for is, okay, we need to find out whether or not the trump team, as, you know, prior to the election, is actually willing to play ball, is willing to have at least a conversation. the russians are very well versed in our sort of western business approach. oh, it's just a meeting, it's just, you know, it's just a blue sky session, we'r

. >> i spoke to steve hall earlier today and he said russia, it is possible, i mean, their mode of operationt is not uncommon for them to use a third party rather than having a russian diplomat or official in this case meeting with donald trump, jr. and it's very possible that this was a probe just to see was somebody in the trump orbit willing or open to the idea even if she didn't have any concrete information. >> absolutely plausible scenario. they make use of all of the tools they have. they have far more control over their stit zens than we have over our citizens. so that scenario is one that someone of my back ground would assume the russians were doing in terms of using all of the tools available to make this approach. keep in mind the american intelligence community concluded this was a massive, synchronized long term effort to manipulate the american electoral process. >> in may you under scored the u.s. prosperity and success are not guaranteed you said i have seen how thin the veneer of american civilization is are you concerned about that. >> this point made on me, the style of d

steve hall, page pate, tara, stick around. we have much more to talk about. thank you all so much. >>> serious concerns, multiple undecideds and a couple of senators who are flat-out nos. that's the battle facing senate republicans in their own party and their latest attempt to repeal and replace obamacare. president trump acknowledging the challenge on his trip to paris telling reporters aboard air force one, "the only thing more difficult than peace between israels and palestinians is health care." this morning the president is turning to social media to underscore the emergency. stating, among other things, that he is at his desk with pen in hand ready to sign this bill into law, and that republicans, his words, must come through as they have promised. but will the new bill even make it to the senate floor for debate? we're on capitol hill tracking all of these developments. what's the late s? >> reporter: i think a lot of senate republicans would agree with president trump this week that health care reform is very, very difficult. the revised bill that wa

also with us cnn national security analyst steve hall, retired cia chief of russia operations.d to see both of you and happy fourth weekend. so, phil, you first. what do you imagine trump and putin really could discuss and the parameters of this sideline meeting during the g20? >> well, i think we've been overthinking this in the past couple of days. if you look at what trump has said, it's been pretty basic. number one, he's comfortable with putin. number two, he's comfortable dealing with people who want to oppose isis. number three, he's comfortable with dictators. he's met with the egyptian leader, who i regard as a dictator, in the white house. that egyptian leader was ostracized by the former president, president obama. i think the bottom line is pretty straightforward, that there will be pretty conversations, in particular about syria, and that those conversations will tend towards saying we need to stop the civil war. we both need to focus on isis. here's the tough part, if that includes an acceptance of the continuation in power of bashar al assad, i think the presiden

. >> talked to steve hall, earlier today, one of the things he said was that -- russia, it is possiblean, that, that their modus operandi not uncommon to use a third party rather than having a russian diplomat or government official actually meeting in this case with donald trump jr. very possible this was a probe just to see was somebody in the trump orbit willing or, or open to the idea. even if she didn't have any concrete information. >> absolutely plausible scenario. they have far more control over their citizens than we have over ours. that scenario that you have laid out, andersen. one that, somebody of my background would assume the russians were doing. in terms of using, all of the tools they had available. to make this approach. keep in mind, andersen. i mean, the american intelligence community is concluded that this was a massive synchronized long term effort on the part of the russian federation to manipulate the american electoral process. >> you know, back in may when i speck to you, you told me how concerned you were with this administration underscored the u.s.'s prosp

one of the things that i talked to steve hall who spent decades in the cia as a cia officer focusingssues, he said it's standard operating procedure of russian intelligence to -- whether through a cutout or directly, to try to probe, in this case, a campaign and sort of -- even if they are not offering up information in that meeting, to try to get a meeting and just learn about who the characters are and try to probe any potential source down the road of weakness or even learning how the infrastructure is set up. >> this is a family. how vulnerable must the trumps be? and again, you should have some empathy for them. this is a group of people, really brought into this world by donald trump who wanted to be president but none of them had the experience to deal with this. they weren't a political family. and so what experience could they bring to it other than their business experience and in trump world, the business and the family are the same thing. it's a very fraught situation. >> do you guys believe that donald trump would have been told whether anything came out of this meeting

with me now, steve hall, cnn national security analyst and retired cia chief of russia operations. mackenzie eglan, laura rosenberger who served in the state department under president george w. bush and the national security council under president obama and cnn senior political analyst david gergen who has been adviser to four presidents. to you, the fact that we are now learning that president trump opened this conversation with president putin specifically on the election meddling, do you think this was all just carefully choreographed? >> no. i don't think -- i think the president went in carefully choreographed. i don't think the whole meeting was. but i must tell you, brooke, jim acosta's right. we need to be cautious now. let's get the full reading. the but the initial reading suggests that this could have been one of the most productive, promising meetings president trump has held since he took office. the very fact that now the meddling is on the table, and we may have disagreements about how that conversation developed, but that they're developing a framework for future

>> jimmy: oh, hi. >> steve: hi. [ light laughter ] >> jimmy: i didn't even see you're coming in the halllk? >> jimmy: i know. pro, anthony "the mooch" scaramucci is the new white house communications director. con, somehow a guy named tony the mooch isn't even close to being the most trustworthy person in the white house. [ laughter and applause ] >> jimmy: big don. pauly the weasel. >> jimmy: pro, sean spicer can now start looking for a less stressful job. con, like heart surgeon or bomb diffuser. [ laughter and applause ] he didn't have an easy job. pro, the bar is set very low. con, the bar is also where you'll end up after every press briefing. well, that's -- >> steve: oh. [ laughter and applause ] >> jimmy: and finally, pro, anthony scaramucci has a clear message for the american people when it comes to russia. con, "don't worry about it." there you go. [ laughter and applause ] >> steve: hey! >> jimmy: that's pros and cons. we're playing charades when we come back. stick around, everybody. come on! [ cheers and applause ] ♪ ready, ok! when we say "study"! study! h