amy: steve kleinman, colonel steve kleinman, former military intelligence officer, you worked with mitchell jessen at the sere school here in washington state in spokane. can you explain who they were and what your interactions were with them? >> i would be happy to. this may come as a surprise to most of your listeners, because it is easy to pretrade as as some greek tragedy where there are evil spirits moving across this gem political landscape when in fact, both retired lieutenant colonels mitchell and jessen, they were instrumental including arguably the best resistance to interrogation program in the world. the were motivated by mission of returning with honor. you mentioned earlier in the introduction about they ultimately then reversed engineered -- that is for the problem lies. it is not really reverse engineering because what we do at a sere school, what we portray is the interrogation model. jessen and mitchell were instrumental in developing deconstructing what went on in the most brutal austere circumstances and in helping to design strategies to resist. that is the extent, alth