. >> well, steve shapiro, i guess this is time to call on you. steve shapiro is the legal director of the aclu for a long time. right? >> right. >> would you like to respond to that, lost its balance. >> let me just say the aclu does not support squalor. we occasionally support depravity. but we do not support squalor. and you know, if what we are down to is debating how the aclu responds to policing tactics and broken windows strategies, then i think we have already reached consensus on about 95% of what the aclu does. so that's a pretty good scorecard to begin with. i think more generally, heather, our position is and you know, i live in new york. i lived in new york all my life. i was here in the '80s and the '70s when it was worse than when you arrived. and the question is not whether we all want to the live in a more hospitable environment and not whether we want our government to provide services to people who need them, including the homeless and people who are suffering from addictions of one sort or another, but whether the government is

. >> i stopped steve shapiro from addressing -- >> i'll ask one question and let my boss take over. and that is -- i think heather is confusing a lot of different things or merging a lot of different things in that answer. there are policing tactics that are unobjectionable and there are policing tactics that i think are objectionable. if police are, in fact, as part of the stop and frisk stopping people when they think they are up to something that is nefarious, they need reasonable suspicion. one has to question why 99% of the people who are nevstopped a never arrested. >> 12% are summoned. the police cannot always be right. you cannot always assume that everybody you stop and question is going to have evidence of crime on them. that doesn't mean that the stop was not following a reasonable suspicion standard. what i would like -- i'll ask you a question. the police are often criticized for their stop ratios that do not match the population of the city. but that analysis, which the aclu frequently uses to charge racial profiling -- for instance, in new york city, blacks are 23% of

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