cooperation agreement, and that's the only way we can sort of guarantee that what we get out of stewart rhodestruthful, reliable testimony. so, you know, this is all posturing by rhodes, and we'll see if he ends up ultimately pleading out and becoming a cooperating witness. >> let me play you again what cassidy hutchinson said. this is probably, what you said, this was the most damning thing that you heard during her testimony. this is 3 for my producers. >> i was in the vicinity of a conversation where i overheard the president say something to the effect of, you know, i don't f'ing care that they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me. take the f'ing mags away. let my people in. they can march to the capitol from here. let the people in. take the f'ing mags away. >> glenn, what's the worst case scenario of what stewart rhodes could testify about his relationship to the white house, to the president and what he and the proud boys did? what he and the oath keepers and the proud boys did? >> you know, if the department of justice and of course the j. 6 committee is building a bridge between

i want to get your thoughts about this in the context of your prior relationship with stewart rhodes. i understand that you had conversations with rhodes about the insurrection act. why was he so fixated on that? what did he think it would enable the oath keepers to do? >> well, i think it gave him a sense of legitimacy, that it was a path forward to move forward with his goals and agenda. i think we need to quit mincing words and just talk about truths and what is going to be was an armed revolution. people died that day. law enforcement officers died on that day. there was a gallo set up at the front of the capitol, this could've been the spark that started a civil war. no one would have won that. that wouldn't have been good for no one. he was always looking for ways to legitimize what he was doing, whether by wrapping it in the trappings of it's not a militia, it's a community preparedness team. we are not a militia, we are an educational outreach group. it's a veteran support group. but, again, we've got to stop with this dishonesty and the mincing of words, and just call things

van tatenhove, in the run up to january 6th stewart rhodes personally implored the president to calm up the 1824 act, rebellion against the united states. i want to get your thoughts about in your prior relationship with stewart roasdz. i understand you had conversation with rhodes about the insurrection act. why was he so fictionated on that and -- fixated on that and what did he think it would enable the oath keepers to do? >> i think it gave him a sense of legitimacy. to move forward with his goals and agenda $. i think we need to quit mincing words and talk about truths and what it was going to be was an armed revolution. i mean people died that day. law enforcement centers died this day. there was a gallows set up in front of the capitol. this could have been the spark that started a new civil war and no one would have won there. that would have been good for to lent miez legitimize what h. wrapping it in the trappings of it's not a militia, it's a community preparedness team. we're not a militia we're an outreach group a veterans support group. but again we've got to stop with t

they are largely stewart rhodes. i think rather than try to use words, i think the best illustration for what the oath keepers are happened january 6 when we saw that stacked military formation going up the stairs of our capitol. i saw radicalization that started with my beginning of my time with them and continued over a period of time as the member base and who it was that stewart rhodes was courting drifted further and further right into the alt right world and into white nationalists. even straight-up racists. it came to a point that i could no longer work for them. but the oath keepers are a dangerous malitia that is in large part fed by the ego and drive of steward rhodes who at times saw himself as this paramilitary leader. i think that drove a lot of it. in my opinion, they're a very dangerous organization. >> thank you. you talked about that danger. so what is the oath keeper's vision for america and why should americans be concerned about it? >> we saw a glimpse of the vision of the oath keepers january 6.

them to the committee today. >> ryan, let's talk about these developments from steve bannon and stewart rhodes, both now apparently willing to testify under oath before the committee. rhodes already spoke to the committee back in february and pleaded the fifth. dozens of times. give us the latest on his legal situation. do you see this as a serious offer? >> you know, i don't. the committee already has six hours of recorded testimony, even if he's taking the fifth for part of that. they already have a lot of this narrative. and i just don't see the committee handing over the reigns to an accused seditionist and basically and allowing him dictating of the terms, to give him the platform to recruit potential members of the oath keepers going forward. so i think it's pretty unlikely. also setting that aside, the justice department isn't going to be too keen about just allowing him to leave the [inaudible] and head over to capitol hill. he might as well request a [inaudible] pony ride, it's just so unrealistic it is never happened. >> phony ride. harry, let me get your read on this. because the be

they are not going to start with stewart rhodes. and bannon is, i think, just a ploy to help in his contempt trial and give the impression that trump does have some privilege claim to weigh, which, as you talked about, he surely doesn't. it's a trick having to do with his criminal conviction. no deals with him. the committee won't touch it. >> what do you make of this, jill? we know trump was upset that no one has been defending him during the committees hearings? could this be an attempt by trump world to go on the offensive and at least try to level the playing field? >> it certainly could be. but i agree with harry, that it is a stunt. that it is really intended to help bannon, particularly with his upcoming trial. and there would be no gain in the sense of the overall hearing. they have been very effective in putting forth a narrative that shows all the strands of the conspiracy, to take down our democracy. a conspiracy to stop the counting of the ballots. a fake electors. the pressure on pence, the pressure on state legislators

and i want to get your thoughts about this in the con of your prior relationship with stewart rhodes.nderstand that you had conversations with rhodes about the insurrection act. why was he so fixated on that, and what did he think it would enable the oath keepers to do? >> well, i think it gave him a sense of legitimacy, that it was a path forward to move forward with his goals and agendas. i think we need to quit mincing words and just talk about truths, and what it was going to be was an armed revolution. i mean, people died that day. law enforcement officers died this day. there was a gallows set up in front of the capitol. this could have been the spark that started a new civil war and no one would have won there. that would have been good for no one. he was always looking for ways to legitimize what he was doing, whether by wrapping it in the of it's not a militia, it's a community preparedness team. we're not a militia, we're an educational outreach group. it's a veterans support group. but again, we've got to stop with this -- this dishonesty and the mincing of words and just c

i think it also helps to explain why stewart rhodes is desperate to testify. we don't know -- he's pending trial in a conspiracy case. but some of these things now seem to be falling into place. >> let's pick up on this piece that glenn has laid out. the hearings focus is gonna be on the extremist groups that were part of the insurrection. what do we know about the ties about -- with trump's associates and the groups like the oath keepers how to those ties play a role. a significant role in these hearings >> that ties that we know about are fairly tenuous, in the sense that we know people like roger stone is a close ally of -- donald trump. january 5th and sixth. we know that there was some communication, but not necessarily get directly connected to what happened at the capitol. but, to what julia spoke about earlier, it is correct that there was a lot of signaling going on. the president said to be there, it will be wild. these groups view that as a call to arms, a call to action. there was a lot of that back and forth along the way. the committee wants to h

from the gun handling accident, stewart rhodes apparently lived in mr. tatenhof's basement for eight months. jason van tatenhof in half now does a park asked about local politics in colorado where he lives now. it's kind of amazing to hear him on his podcast straight-up relaying the most recent news about january 6th and the investigation and the criminal charges against these paramilitary groups, and then while he's just doing his normal news podcast he has to mention kind of like as a fair disclosure to his listeners that, oh yeah, that news that we're doing right here, he used to live in my basement. >> the new indictment now is the second time that a far-right group has been charged, as i said. in january, stewart rhodes, leader and founder and previous basement roommate of mine -- he lived in my basement for about eight months -- was arrested and charged along with ten others in the same crime. >> previous basement roommate of mine. so this guy has a unique perspective right? the skies had unique access to these groups which are an important part of

when stewart rhodes and a rico are talking.can't use our tell knowledge-y to ascertain what they were saying. in the charging documents for tarrio it's mentioned that they were discussed. that the capital was discussed. but we weren't able to. establish >> i don't have enough readers and i don't have the same technologically federal government has. >> do you believe that they were discussing january 6th? when i heard was at their discussion of enrique was that he went based close to his boys as he called them. and that he was worried -- he wasn't worried about his communications having been be reached. that is the extent of the conversation that i heard. >> do you remember the stand back and stand by thing from the debate we -- the proud boys said that same thing. the committee's mission is that they have mentioned that the former president talked about be there. saying, quote, and generally six that to be there it will be wild. you are with them at key moments. what kind of effect do you think the statements had any kind of ef

. >>> we are following news on a potential witness, lawyers for stewart rhodes telling msnbc he wants to testify but there is a catch. we will tell you what it will take if the committee was the head of the oath keepers to go public. >>> a new ruling between congress and donald trump. the ruling coming in on if the house committee can get their hands on the former president's financial records. >>> plus, president biden at the japanese embassy here in washington, d.c. ameer, signing the condolence book for shinzo abe, who was assassinated on the campaign trail today. we have that coming up. i am hallie jackson minor in washington with a lot to go into this afternoon. with me is our panel. we know a little bit about what has gone down. he has been described as cooperative within the parameters of protecting executive privilege for the office of general counsel. take that from source for, you know, corporate >>, if you will, and help us understand it in plain english. >> that's right, hallie, cipollone has been in that room more than six hours. we still believe he is in there testifying

stewart rhodes started the oath keepers after 2008 in response to barack obama. proud boys was started in 2016 by the vice media crew who had founded vice media. stewart rhodes of the oath keepers leader went to yale law. these are not losers themselves. what they are trying to do is build a movement of people similar to them and use that movement, is people who left felt left out of society really changing anocracy and they can do that, because they are willing to use violence to achieve it. and because a faction of the gop is letting them gain power and that's extremely dangerous to this country. >> the big inside of your piece that is resonated with me was a kind of comparative points, and basically said look, party aligned militias which is these entities look like, particularly the role of january six, you can find them all over the world. they exist. tell me more about this as a kind of institution and other parts of the world and what it means? >> absolutely. so this is well known from india to iraq. parties that want to win democratic contest but no don't

. >> in the run up to the january 6th, stewart rhodes publicly implore president trump to invoke theurrection act. 1807 law that allows the president to call out malicious to, put down a rebellion against united states. i want to get your thoughts about the severe prior relationship with stewart rhodes and you had conversations with roads about the insurrection acts. why was he so fixated on that and why do you think he would enable the oath keepers to do? >> well, i think it gave him a sense of legitimacy that it was a path forward to move forward with his goals and agendas. i think we need to quit mincing words and just talk about truths. when it was gonna be was armed revolution. people died that day. law enforcement died this day. that was a gallows set up in front of the capital. this could have been the spark that stored at a new civil war and no one would have won their. it would have been good for no one. he was always looking for ways to legitimize what he was doing, whether via wrapping it in the trappings of it's not a militia, it's a community preparedness team. we are no

they are largely stewart rhodes.use words, i think the best illustration for what the oath keepers are happened january 6th. when we saw that military formation going forward going up the stairs of our capital. i saw radicalization that started with my beginning of my time with them, and continue over a period of time, as a member base and who it was that stewart rhodes was courting, drifted further and further right, into the alt-right world, into the white nationalist, instead straight-up races. it came to a point where i could no longer continue to work for them, but the oath keepers are a dangerous militia that is in large part that by the ego and drive of stewart rhodes who time scene to scene self at times us paramilitary leader. i think that drove a lot of it. so, in my opinion, the oath keepers are very dangerous organization. >> thank you very much. you talked a little bit about that danger. what is the oath keepers vision for america? why should americans be concerned about it? >> i think we saw a glimpse o

some light on that, the doj could shine a light on that, that will be really interesting. >> stewart rhodesously the leader of the oath keepers, the guy that you saw pictures of, who has the eye patch over his eye. ryan, thank you very much. as always, we look forward to talking to you in getting more of your analysis on this, as you have been following very, very closely. ryan reilly, a justice reporter for msnbc news digital. coming up on velshi, what to expect in the upcoming january six public hearings. plus, another major clip from the documentary unprecedented, which was released hours ago. and later this hour, buy by boris. the prime minister resigns among scandal. what lessons can we learn stateside from his fall from grace? and from this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club, we welcome ashley hope perez, author of out of darkness, some people including this very unhappy parent from texas do not want kids to read. not wantid kce your windshield and recalibrate your advanced safety system. >> dad: looks great. thanks. >> tech: stay safe with safelite. schedule now. >> singer

you can face, right, in this case and so stewart rhodes has said all these things both before and after online, you can find him talking about going after the government, talking about the fact that he believed joe biden was not the president and that the president must do something, we must do something as a group. but there's also all these messages on signal being sent from him and others to each other talking about things like pre combat inspections, very mill tar wrist i can language about what they were going to do on january 6th. then you have -- you just heard from whitney wild -- one of the co-conspirators bringing things like weapons, things like explosives to a hotel in preparation for this. so he might show some connective tissue between all of these people and the power that perhaps the leadership has over some of the members. >> bennie thompson, the chairman of the committee, set the bar on what they're trying to achieve here. at the very beginning of this series of hearings. here is what he said. >> are there going to be witnesses that describe actual conversations betwee

i don't think you'll see stewart rhodes himself giving that much testimony.did testify to the committee. i don't think he will have some smoking gun, but what you might hear is connections between these groups. what they do have things like cell phone data, that might context to these groups, that may shed light on phone calls, things like that. that might be something we'll see next week. what we're looking for is coordination. we know there's coordination between the produce boys and the oath keepers. they talked about what was going to happen on the 6th. how far up the chain did this go? that's the next question. >> bell coninns, ali vitali, thanks to both of you. >>> growing frustration from president biden inside his party. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. watching instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette there's a monster problem and our hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro

at the leader of the group stewart rhodes who is on jail of seditious conspiracy charges said he wille january 6th committee live and in person. all of this comes while the january six committee prepares for a hearing this tuesday on links between these extremist groups and people in trump's orbit. joining me now as margaret wong, the presidency of the southern poverty law center which tracks extremist groups, and has provided testimony in research to the january six committee. thank you so much for joining us margaret. what is your reaction to the department of justice filing an explosives and planning for violence? this is something the far right wing far-right as always dismissed. but this revelation revelation is rather significant because it completely changes that false narrative? >> well, thanks for having me on, and i have to tell you that this is not a surprise to us. the oath keepers and the proud boys, both of who have been clearly associated with the events on january the 6th, both have a long history of using violence and the threat of violence to advance their political

that isn't as incompetent as stewart rhodes. willing to go lead the charge instead of stepping back to where the legal line is. so he's not arrested. what's going to happen when there's real leadership in that community? and they are leading the charge. and every time we see these events happen, and there's not accountability. it embolden these groups, they see it as a victory. that's why we see it as a ratcheting up of bundy ranch to the capital. we went from a standoff to trying to start a revolution, trying to kick off a bloody revolution. >> thank you jason, thank you ruth, appreciate it. we should continue to have this conversation. please come back, thank you. >> absolutely thank you. >> family members of uvalde school shooting victims blindsided by leaked video surveillance footage from the attack. now they are outraged by what the videos show. officers doing and not doing. bubbles so many bubbles! as an expedia member you earn points onon your travels, and that's on top of your airline miles. so you can go and see... or

with stewart rhodes. and once interviewed matt's hotel in baltimore? so we kind of got there late. proud boys were marching down the mall. and they were -- this time they're much more organized and they had been in 20 on december the 12th. when they did a similar things. they walked on the mall, and information, but this time they're walking and they're much more organized. >> -- i thought -- it felt less suspicious. because they're doing the same thing today before. >> you said they're more organized. >> they were walking at a strait thought. which on the other days they could manage to do. so this time they're walking in a straight line. they had aligned that they were getting. anyone who wasn't with them. they're asking them to leave. >> when did you get idea that big -- >> to really didn't have any idea that was going to change until the virus came down. there's a couple of little indications just a little bit before. mccarthy would scream now let's go get these folks. but i didn't really pay attention to it. the bears came down the world changed. >> let's talk about what happe

fornd longer than that though, r years, involved to the point where the leader of the oathkeeper, stewart rhodes, the guy with the eye patch from the gun handling accident, he lived in jason's basement for eight monthsin and jason does a local podcast in colorado and it is amazing to hear him on his podcast, straight up, relaying the most recent news about january 6th, the investigation, and the criminal charges against these para-military tigroups, a then while he is doing his normal news podcast he has to mention, kind of like as a fair disclosure to his listeners that oh,ik yeah, that view we're talking about, that dude used to live in my basement. >> the new indictment now is the second time that a far right group has beenhe charged as i said, in january, stewart rhodes, leader and founder and previous basement roommate of mine, he lived in my basement for about eight months, was arrested and charged along with ten others in the same crime. >> previous basement roommate of mine. so this guy has a unique perspective, right? this guy has had unique access to these groups, which are an importan

the committee learned stewart rhodes stopped to buy weapons on his way to washington and shipped roughlyorth of tactical gear to january 6th valley planner in virginia before the attack. did you ever hear rhodes discuss committing violence against elected political leaders? >> yeah, that went back to my tenure, one of the first assignments he brought to me wanting me to do is more of a graphic artist function was to create a deck of cards, you may remember back to the conflict in the middle east where our own military created deck of cards which was who's who of the key players on the other side they wanted to take out. and stewart was intrigued by the notion and influenced by it and wanted me to create deck of cards that would include different politicians, judges, including up to hillary clinton as the queen of hearts. this is a project i refused to do but from the very start we saw that, there was always the push for military training including courses in that community that went over explosives training. so yeah, it all falls in line. >> mr. van tatenhove, you said in your thoughtful

we talked to stewart rhodes' attorney, and he has denied that happened.r whether that changes any of the things that we know is ongoing from the criminal cases. the other thing we know is obviously the committee was trying very hard to connect what happened with the violence with what trump was doing. and i think, again, if you're a prosecutor and you're trying to make that connection, i don't think they necessarily got there today. because, you know, again, you have to sort of get to the mindset of what donald trump was thinking. and you know, everything we have heard from even from the witnesses today is that he still was claiming that he really did believe that he won the election. and so again, it's one of those things that i think there's a lot more work for prosecutors to do for the investigators to do, to be able to make that connection, and there are other ways that they might get to the former president, including, of course, his deep involvement with the electors and the fake electors plot they were trying to come up with. >> all right, evan per

i got embedded with stewart rhodes, i had these grand notions of writing my version of hunter as thompson'sls angels. but i got cut. up to be clear, i was never member. i was an employee, but that's almost worse. well but i think the appeal really is they are targeting disenfranchised individuals that don't feel like they've got much going on in their lives. they may be veterans who were yearning for brotherhood. they are keying in on these emotional issues, and really providing a sense of purpose. they've really kind of weaponized the messaging and social media and it seems like they are moving off the same playbook whether it's alex jones, or it's president trump, or it stewart rhodes. they're all kind of cut from the same cloth and using the same tactics. >> i interviewed to qanon people one of whom directly message me telling me that i would be executed in washington, d.c., on a certain date. and i was scared to see where this person is. and do they actually believe what they are saying or is it something they just throw out. and the people you met. did they have coherent philosophies o

trump and trump allies, stewart rhodes has alleged that he thought the election was rigged.are we going to have to convince people that stewart rhodes knew that it was a lie? are we going to have to convince jurors that he had to know this was bogus? the same question applies for donald trump and trump's allies? were they pushing a lie they knew was a lie because that's critical. that's state of mind. >> the washington post carol leonnig reporting a big story for the post along with her colleagues. you can read it at washingtonpost.com this morning. carol, thank you very much for being here. good to see you. joining us now democratic senator chris coons of delaware and he's a member of the foreign relations and judiciary committees. good to have you on. you've been listening to the interview and lester holt and merrick garland. the excerpts we've been playing this morning and what's your impression from justice. we haven't heard a lot and there's been frustration that justice may not be moving as forcefully as some people think it should be. garland essentially telling leste

another view of the scene shows oath keepers leader stewart rhodes in the picture as well. another central figure with ties to this network of extremist groups was roger stone, a political consultant and the long time confidante of president trump. he pardoned both flynn and stone in the weeks between the election on november 3rd and january 6th. in the same time frame, stone communicated with both the proud boys and the oath keepers regularly. the committee obtained encrypted content from a group chat called friends of stone, fos, including stone, rhodes, tario, and alexander, the chat focused on various pro trump events in november and december of 2020 as well as january 6th. as you can see here, stewart rhodes himself urged the friends of stone to have people go to their state capitols if they cannot make it to washington for the first million maga march on november 14th. friends of roger stone had a significant presence at multiple pro trump events after the election, including in washington on december 12th. on that day, stewart rhodes called for donald trump to invoke

stewart rhodes, oath keeper leader asked him to create a duck of playing cards to feature targeted international terrorists, and he wanted to put hillary clinton on one of those playing cards. we needed to hear that today, and we also all needed to hear as we've heard about the dots being connected, we needed to see that those dotted lines become more solid lines between trump and illegality, right? rejecting the legal for the illegal. rejecting the rule of law through the rule of trump. what's the rule of trump? get it done by any means necessary. if i don't hear what i want from official people and sources, i'll go unofficial. if that doesn't work, i'll go appeal to the public masses, and you're right, i don't care about those public masses. >> well, ng frank, to your point about illegality, pat cipollone was worth the wait. he seemed to corroborate all the evidence we heard him respond to, that cassidy hutchinson had testified to in her public hearing as well as her depositions. but he also painted a very clear picture, and there was a lot of talk about how robust his testimony would be. when

and the committee's also learned that stewart rhodes stopped to buy weapons on his way to washington cted political leaders? >> yeah, i mean, that went back from the very beginning of my tenure. one of the first assignments that he brought to me wanting me to do is more of a graphic artist function was to create a deck of cards. you may remember back to the conflict in the middle east where our own military created a deck of cards, which was a who's who of kind of the key players on the other side that they wanted to take out. and stewart was very intrigued by that notion, and influenced by it, i think, and he wanted me to create a deck of cards that would include different politicians, judges, including up to hillary clinton as the queen of hearts. this is a project that i refused to do, but from the very start, we saw that. there was always the push for military training, including there were courses in that community that went over explosives training, so yeah, this all falls in line. >> mr. van tatenhove, you say in your very thoughtful written testimony that we received today tha

. >> speaking of leaders, we learned today that the leader of the oath keepers, stewart rhodes, he wants to testify before the committee and he wants to wave his rights but he wants to do it on tv you say hard pass, why? >> first of all you have to remember these guys are violent and wanna-bees they talk this tough game. part of the goal here is to portray them as losers. i can not describe the extent of which what the january 6th commit sedoing is mirroring a counterinsurgence, isolate them, show them as losers, he says he has an ar- 15. i am not going out alive and now here he is now, begging, he is still alive, he is begging for an audience. they will not give it to him because they already have what they need. he thinks he is still the big talker. he is not. they have seven guys who are around him cooperating. he thinks he is essential. he is not essential. how you verserate groups like the oath keepers and proud boys who remember from the first hearing they meet, you see it from the documentary. they meet the night before, january 5th in that parking lot and remember oath keepers ar

stewart rhodes says he has an ar-15 saying he's not going out alive, he's still alive begging for an audience. they're not doing to gi ve it t him pause they have what they need so stewart thinks he's still the big talker. he's not. they have seven guys from around him cooperating. he thinks he's essential. he's not essential. and how you e visarate the oath keepers and proud boys that remember from the first hearing they meet, we see from the documentary, they meet the night before on january 5th in the parking lot and remember, oath keepers are the security guards for roger stone and his people. so to the extent next week will be very interesting, aligning the violence with trump even more so with -- >> yeah, that's going to be happening tuesday coming up. juliette, you yourself have been interviewed twice but the january 6th committee about your research on extremists groups and ensitincitement. i want to know what the committee was most interested in knowing from you? >> they were hard to read. as i wrote, it was staff. it was they're collecting information about how to think abo

stewart rhodes, the head of the oath keepers, who is in jail awaiting trial on charges of -- >> seditious conspiracy. >> seditious conspiracy. he said he'll do it live with his lawyer present. what would be the benefit of hearing from him. would the committee want to do this? >> absolutely not. the only reason to do this and insist on doing it live is to try to hijack the show and to try to say things damaging to the investigation. they can talk to him on video just as they did before. it's their decision, not his. >> thank you for all the good reporting. still ahead the president signs an executive order aimed at protecting abortion rights. what does it do? we'll explain in a moment. plus, the june jobs report defies expectations. still a big decision for the fed. what it means for you in a moment. and summer surge. the now dominant covid variant that is being called the most contagious yet. g called the mos contagious yet wanna help kids get their homework done? well, an internet connection's a good start. but kids also need computers. and sometimes the hardest thing about homework is f

now a lawyer for oath keepers leaders stewart rhodes said his client wanted to testify before the january 6 committee for a second time but only if certain conditions are met. rhodes is behind bars pending trial for seditious conspiracy and other charges related to the january 6 attack. his attorney said rhodes would testify publicly under oath but only in a live setting. >> wait a second. hold on a second. this guy is in jail. >> for seditious conspiracy. >> to overthrow the united states government. >> and we're going to giver him a live audience. >> and he's setting conditions for his testimony. yeah, sorry, buddy, it doesn't work that way. >> so he wants a live hearing because he's concerned his words could be taken out of context otherwise. it is unclear what new information rhodes could or would provide. he previously appeared for a virtual deposition with the committee in february from jail and invoked his fifth amendment right against self-incrimination more than 20 times. and former white house strategist steve bannon has opened discussions about appearing before the january 6 co

. >> i have talked to stewart rhodes, the leader of the oath keepers, and who made a lot of statementsctment, some very clear statements he made after january 6th, that the government says he was plotting to do more violence and preparing his troops, so to speak, for more violence. we've now seen this indictment that has a lot of new details in it. there was a co-conspirator who had explosives, who had on his property things like grenades and illegal firearms they seized. we also heard about someone having bomb-making -- something that basically was a recipe for bomb-making. they found inside of her -- her name is jaessica watkin, inside her home in her home. i went to that area. early off after she was raesd, she was one of the first to be arrested on conspiracy charges in this case, and now along with nine others, faces these stronger charges. we went to talk to some of the people surrounding her. we've never shown this particular part of the interview i did with her boyfriend, who stopped to talk to us after we tried knocking on the door. he got in his car and stopped to talk to us.

the last thing you need is stewart rhodes, on tape making a bunch of self-serving exculpatory statements to congress while you're in the middle trying to put on a prosecution. >> one of the things we have learned in these hearings is -- i'm sorry, it's better for the committee to have people on tape than life because the committee has been able to pick and choose, and that's why i think it's better that they had cipollone on tape as opposed to live so they can find the useful parts of the testimony and get rid of any sort of filibustering and hamming and hiring. the same thing with this joker in prison. they don't need him live. he can just rot and wait. >> appreciated, thanks. >>> coming up next, how japan is coping with the almost unimaginable, the assassination of shinzo abe, and the fact he was shot in a society with very few firearms and only a handful of gun deaths per you, sometimes fewer than that. >>> later, a month and a half since their level of work murdered, the people in texas have just a lot of collecting information lies, coverups, finger-pointing, invasioion fro official

the leader, stewart rhodes, wants to give testimony, but he wants it to be public. what do you make of that? >> well, it can be made public after it's taken privately. but no lawyer, no committee member is going to allow him a forum without pretaping his conversation. same thing with bannon. we hear now he may want to cooperate. but we don't know whether these are trojan horses or people who have, you know, sort of found faith. we'll see about that. but there's no way these guys are going to walk in and have the committee say, so, well, what's up? >> right, right. as someone who's been watching this obviously with your expertise, your eye, what else is left, in your opinion, to really unfurrow for people, to really walk people through? what do you hope to see? >> so from a legal perspective -- i think from a political perspective, they're doing a terrific job. from a legal perspective, i'm sitting in attorney general garland's chair, and i'm thinking, is there a crime i can charge here? i think they still need to tighten the connection between the white house and th

during the december, 2020 she told me stewart rhodes was actually trying to get her to put him in touch with the white house. this was the time when you had the oath keepers writing letters saying they wanted to have donald trump unless them and call them up and vote the insurrection act and have the u.s. military to take over. they want to redo the elections, have the national guard to come in, have the military to be in charge of these elections. all of the sound sort of battey, we have to remember who is bringing into the white house at that point, and how many of those individuals were really connected to the oath keepers and the proud boys and all these various efforts. it was really kind of a mess in those final months. lot of those people who are brought to the white house, we had the reference last segment to snl, a lot of those individuals were like you wish you had started a conversation with a party, pre-fringe figures out there were putting at these crazy beliefs about the election. they were getting an audience at the white house. >> let's go back to donald trump. one thing

stewart rhodes, who is facing trial for seditious conspiracy, said he wants to speak live before the committee, which i doubt will happen, given the fact that he is under federal criminal investigation. that would be a massive mistake. what would you be looking for on tuesday -- one of the sort of unanswered questions or evidence that you are going to be looking to as someone who has reported deeply on this? >> so, there is a couple of things. one, i think it's just important to mark the moment that tuesday's hearing will bring us to what you can think of as the main event, right? the actual mob violence on the ground of january 6th. up until now, we had a flavor of that in the first hearing. but we have really spent a lot of time in these hearings leading up to tuesday in the back rooms, in the office suites, in the people with the suits and the ties, and what we are going to find out on tuesday that we are going to be dealing with people in the booths, not the suits. and i am looking for a couple of things. we are probably going to hear a significant amount about proud boys who wen

we know they have obtained phones from members of the oath keepers and stewart rhodes, the head of that group and enrique ontario of the proud boys. the other thing they're likely doing is flipping some of those people. those people who agreed to cooperate are no doubt going in the grand jury, trying to work their way up the chain to get to that willard hotel war room. if they can get their way into that friends of stone group chat or link up to rudy giuliani, mike flynn, others who have ties to the oath keepers and the proud boys, they may be able to tie donald trump to the seditious conspiracy charge. >> so if they move forward, we're going to know. that will come public with criminal charges. if they do not move forward with criminal charge, will we be told why? will the american public be told why? >> that's a great question. in ordinary cases the answer is no. i think in a case of this magnitude there needs to be an announcement that they are declining charges and an explanation as to why. it can't be done the way it was done with hillary clinton, which is disparaging the person, b

know, what's going to happen when one of these leaders comes up that isn't as incompetent as stewart rhodesilling to lead the charge instead of step back to where that legal line is and tow it when he's not arrested. what's going to happen to real leadership in that community when they're leading the charge? and every time we see these events happen and there's not accountability it emboldens these groups and that's why we see this ratcheting up from the bundy ranch to the capitol. we started from trying to kick off a bloody revelation right on the steps of the capitol. >> thank you, jason. thank you, ruth. i appreciate it. we should continue to have this conversation. please come back. i appreciate what you did. >>> family members of uvalde school shooting victims blind-sided by leaked video of surveillance footage from the attack. now they're outraged from what the video shows officers doing and not doing. in one second, sara. yes! will get a job offer somewhere sunnier. relocating in weeks. weeks? yeah, weeks. gotta sell the house. don't worry, sell to opendoor, and move on your schedule

he also spoke about the founder of the oath keepers, stewart rhodes. >> you may remember back to theonflict in the middle east where our own military created a deck of cards which was a who's who of kind of the key players on the other side that they wanted to take out. he wanted me to create a deck of cards that would include different politicians, judges, including up to hillary clinton as the queen of hearts. this is a project that i refused to do, but from the very start we saw that. >> let's bring in chuck rosenblum, former u.s. attorney and former senior fbi official. frank fuzziness deal with us. jack that was a former oath keeper himself. does that impact how we view his testimony? because it wasn't long ago that he subscribed all this. >> it's a good point stephanie. as prosecutors and frank as an fbi agent, we deal with this all the time. a wise man told me that if you want to draw a map of hell you don't want an angel to do it. if you want to know how the oath keepers work, it's pretty helpful to talk to an oath keeper. you want to know how drug cartel works, is pretty hel